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Ask God for Me

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Clizby WampusCat

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I want to know how a cell came about...from the beginning, how did one cell, per each species, even ¨ëvolve" into a recognizable....thing?
We don't know how life started. I cannot tell you that. If you want to know how evolution works then that is a longer study. I cannot show you in one post. There is a thread here that has educational resources on evolution and natural selection for laypeople like us to understand.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If you're going to ask me this question, then you haven't truly been listening to anything I've said ever since you've come onto this Forum ...

... And why do I say this? I say this because ALL of what I've said to you over hundreds of post PRECLUDE my killing of other people (just short of those who invade my home or threaten my family) as an option or as a possibility. So, for you to pose the question makes me feel like you're maybe being a bit disingenuous here ...
It is a logical question based on your answers. If you think it is OK for god to command to kill homosexuals, who do you think god wanted to do that? He wanted people to carry it out, so if you are unwilling to kill them yourself then I am glad but this just shows your morals are better than gods.

And then, if you think we need to discuss the ethical particulars, then there's little in the Christian ethical framework that prevents any of us from doing so. However, saying that you do discuss moral problems in depth or claiming that you are willing to do so is a far cry from actually ................... doing so. Unfortunately, and so far, I haven't really seen much in the way of your fully doing what you claim you do. No, I've just seen a lot of claims by your vouching for your own state of 'being moral,' with little discussion or educational substance to back up much, if any, of those claims.

And I have to ask: Why do you not lay out your position more fully or point specifically to the sources that have gone into your newest lines of moral thought?
I have discussed how I come to my morals. But you don't want to talk to me about it you want to talk to books I have read to inform my opinions. Pick a situation and we can discuss what the moral thing to do is and why.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Do you have a better plan than GOD?
Yes, forgive people without a sacrifice, that is what god asks us to do, Show people he exists so they can make an informed decision to follow him or not, make a better communication tool than the bible so the mass confusion is avoided, heal sick people etc.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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The supernatural entity that was troubling your daughter, from your statement, and your daughterś words, bothered her no longer....
Ok, first I cannot verify it was a supernatural entity or even that it existed. My young daughter believed it but no on else saw it. How can I verify it was real? I am not denying that it was I just don't know.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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CLizby,

why would you respond to this above poster by denying that you had been a Christian if a few posts later you tell another poster that you had been a Christian for 18 years?

Please review posts 737 and 742 together and follow up with the post which you state you had been a Christian for 18 years

I don't understand. Here is what Oncedeceived said in 737.
You were once a Christian, I find it strange for someone who is searching for truth would not look into other religions.

Here is how I replied.

Where did I say this. I actually indicated the opposite when I said I know what Muslims say to convince others their god is real.

Where does it say I was never a christian?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Secondly, you still haven't addressed what substance you have in your moral thinking that provides you with 'moral authority' to tell other people where the ethical roads ends ...

Why is that?
I have never said I had that. No one has as I have already stated many times. This is why we need to decide together what is moral in any situation by discussing and using reason. What situation do you want to discuss?
 
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miknik5

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We don't know how life started. I cannot tell you that. If you want to know how evolution works then that is a longer study. I cannot show you in one post. There is a thread here that has educational resources on evolution and natural selection for laypeople like us to understand.
Of course you don´t...because you can´t go back to the very beginning...scientists can only make conclusions based on the physical evidence that they have before them...and they can only go back as far as that physical evidence...
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If your daughter did not see anything, and she was 4 years old, how was she able to give you such an unfamiliar, (though familiar in Greek Mythology), name and description of her ¨friend?¨
I don't know kids are very creative. The more likely explanation is that she heard the name from someone or it was in one of the many books we read. In the end I don't know what the explanation really is.
 
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miknik5

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Yes, forgive people without a sacrifice, that is what god asks us to do, Show people he exists so they can make an informed decision to follow him or not, make a better communication tool than the bible so the mass confusion is avoided, heal sick people etc.
GOD is holy, sir...HE can not stand in the presence of sin...there is only ONE WAY back into HIS PRESENCE sir...

And through this PLAN HE does forgive sins...

HE will not allow anything to overshadow the unfathomable GRACE of THE GIFT HE has provided...
 
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miknik5

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Ok, first I cannot verify it was a supernatural entity or even that it existed. My young daughter believed it but no on else saw it. How can I verify it was real? I am not denying that it was I just don't know.
Osiris is not in the vocabulary of a 4 year old.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Of course you don´t...because you can´t go back to the very beginning...scientists can only make conclusions based on the physical evidence that they have before them...and they can only go back as far as that physical evidence...
Yes scientists only believe what they can demonstrate, so should we. What is your point?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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GOD is holy, sir...HE can not stand in the presence of sin...there is only ONE WAY back into HIS PRESENCE sir...

And through this PLAN HE does forgive sins...

HE will not allow anything to overshadow the unfathomable GRACE of THE GIFT HE has provided...
If this is the case why could Satan be in His presence? See Job.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It is a logical question based on your answers. If you think it is OK for god to command to kill homosexuals, who do you think god wanted to do that? He wanted people to carry it out, so if you are unwilling to kill them yourself then I am glad but this just shows your morals are better than gods.

I have discussed how I come to my morals. But you don't want to talk to me about it you want to talk to books I have read to inform my opinions. Pick a situation and we can discuss what the moral thing to do is and why.

Y'know, you make quite a few overtures to 'LOGIC,' but you know what? I never really see you demonstrate any substantial engagement with the field of LOGIC other than your claims to do so.

So, guess what? I don't believe that you're really as adept at using logic as you infer that you are or than you're really using the concept in a reasonable manner. No, I just see make constant claims and overtures toward 'LOGIC.' The upshot of that is: constantly doing so without supporting your praxis ... isn't logical.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Ok I think we need to reset the conversation. This is the argument you are making as I understand it:

1. Information is in DNA.
2. Only intelligence can produce information.
3. Therefore information in DNA was produced by an intelligent being.

You then support premise 2. with the claim that every time we have investigated where information came from we find an intelligent being as the creator.

Is this correct?

If so, I grant you premise 1. I am not convinced it is information but I will see what comes out of Kylie and your conversation about it. I will agree for now that it is information.
You agree now its information? How if not information would a cell even edit itself? How would it form anything? DNA's information is an instruction manual for life. The information doesn't come from the material makeup of the DNA itself. The bases that Kylie is speaking about are not information, they are a code that is the used to provide the instructions. They by themselves have no information without the words they eventually 'spell'. The letters need information to make up the words. The letters can be random and still carry out a specific function. The letters can't run on and on without beginnings or endings or they are only gibberish. It is the information that does the instruction to form the words, the sentence beginning and end. I am making this as simple as I can.

My problem is with premise 2. Your support for this is a fallacy. We cannot know that only intelligence can produce information.

You say it is a fact that:

Only intelligence can produce information.

I disagree, this is an assertion at this point, I say it is a fact that:

Only intelligence has been found to produce information.
Lets say it this way, the only way life exists is due to the cell. We have no evidence that life exists without cells. It is not fallacious to claim this. That is a fact that remains true all across earth. The same is true of information, across the earth the only way information is produced is through intelligent beings. It is no more fallacious to make this claim as it is to claim life exists due to the cell. In fact, life exists because of information because without the information systems within DNA life would not exist on earth.

What you are saying is equivalent to saying every time my car does not start my battery was found to be dead. Then the next time my car does not start I conclude the battery is dead without supporting that claim. This is fallacious, it could be a number of things. What should be said is "I don't know" until we can demonstrate that the battery is dead.
Nope not the same at all. We know that cars not starting are due to many causes and it can be demonstrated. Not so with information, we have no other causes of information other than intelligent beings.

You don't know unless you investigate it. Just like information in DNA, unless you can demonstrate that an intelligence is behind the information it remains in the "I don't know" category.
It is investigated, it is called Biology. Biology has no answer to the information in the DNA, but due to many factors, God can not be considered. That in no way says it is not God.

Another question for you. If you were convinced that this argument was flawed would you still believe in a God? I bet you would, I don't think this is the reason you believe in a god but maybe I am wrong.
Why do you believe in evolution, even though you are unclear about many aspects of it?

I don't know what to say to a person that believes my disbelief in their god is evidence for their God.

Edited to say: I think I read your comment wrong. You were meaning that I don't consider your evidence to be real evidence? I consider it evidence, I don't think it is sufficient evidence to believe intelligence is behind it. You seem to think that just because some evidence is good enough for you to believe it then should be good enough for others to believe. This is not the case.
Again, why do you believe in Evolution?
 
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miknik5

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Yes scientists only believe what they can demonstrate, so should we. What is your point?
My point is there was a starting point.

We wouldn´t be here if there wasn´t
 
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miknik5

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And you know this how?
If you tell me that you read to your 4 year old child greek mythology, and midgets with horns, then of course, I am wrong...
And if you tell me that your child was being taught at the age 4 by preschool teachers, I will ask you....
WHY?
 
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miknik5

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I don't know kids are very creative. The more likely explanation is that she heard the name from someone or it was in one of the many books we read. In the end I don't know what the explanation really is.
4 year olds haven´t ventured much out into the world...their only influence at that age is their parents...

And preschool teachers, if they attended preschool.
Maybe their grandparents as well.

Did your parents, or your wifeś parents have an interest in greek mythology or midget horned creatures?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Y'know, you make quite a few overtures to 'LOGIC,' but you know what? I never really see you demonstrate any substantial engagement with the field of LOGIC other than your claims to do so.

So, guess what? I don't believe that you're really as adept at using logic as you infer that you are or than you're really using the concept in a reasonable manner. No, I just see make constant claims and overtures toward 'LOGIC.' The upshot of that is: constantly doing so without supporting your praxis ... isn't logical.
I have told you more than once how I determine morals. I also asked you twice now if you wanted to provide an ethical scenario so we could discuss and see if we can come to an agreement on what the moral thing to do is. Seems like all you want to do is talk about theories. How about putting it into practice?
 
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