If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

[Strong in Him]

Anytime you want to present those scriptures on universal atonement, I’ll will willing to listen to your argument.

I said that I'm not a universalist.

And I'm not presenting anything more in this thread. I've explained why I believe that Scripture teaches about a God who IS love and who sent his Son to die for mankind. If some people don't believe it or see it differently, that's up to them.

 

[zoidar]

But you can't show from scripture how those who are according to Scripture are unable to please God, can somehow be real enough, and can of themselves produce faith of such virtue as to lift themselves above their slavery to sin, to "accept" Christ into their fickle silly self-important hearts and God must respect their free will i.e. power of decision and self-determination in a world of cause-and-effect. Regeneration is entirely, from start to finish, the work of God. The faith is the gift of God, the work of the Holy Spirit, not the work of ignorant effects.

There are no little first causes walking about on the planet. The only thing worth calling real is what God decides.

From my understanding, first you know about Jesus and believe he was raised from the dead. Then you turn to him for forgiveness and God gives you a new heart, then you are regenerated and have the power to live a new life.

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, (resulting in) unto righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, (resulting in) unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

 

[Hammster]

I quoted the Scriptures for you which clearly teaches the distinction between those walking in the flesh and those walking in to Spirit so nothing is ignored. Both are walking. But we are commanded to walk in the Spirit to receive life. If you choose to disbelieve in God's Word that is your issue.

What you ignore is that Paul shows that it’s the distinction between those in Christ and those not saved.

 

[Hammster]

From my understanding, first you know about Jesus and believe in him. Then you turn to him for forgiveness and God gives you a new heart, then you are regenerated and have the power to live a new life.

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in (unto) righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in (unto) salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

So that I’m clear, your understanding is that if we believe with our old, sin-sick hearts of stone that want nothing to do with God (For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8), He then gives us new hearts?

 

[Hammster]

I said that I'm not a universalist.

And I'm not presenting anything more in this thread. I've explained why I believe that Scripture teaches about a God who IS love and who sent his Son to die for mankind. If some people don't believe it or see it differently, that's up to them.

I didn’t say that you were a universalist. But you believe in universal atonement (Christ died for everyone). And yes, you’ve explained. But you’ve not supported your view with scripture that can be examined.

 

[zoidar]

So that I’m clear, your understanding is that if we believe with our old, sin-sick hearts of stone that want nothing to do with God (For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8), He then gives us new hearts?

I believe a heart set to the flesh needs to be convicted by the Holy Spirit. Once convicted, repentance needs to follow for the old heart to be regenerated and the person saved. To be convicted is not enough, repentance needs to follow. First after repentance a person get the Holy Spirit and is put in the vineyard of Christ.

To be clear, to be convicted is not the same as being regenerated.

 

[Hammster]

I believe a heart set to the flesh needs to be convicted by the Holy Spirit. Once convicted, repentance needs to follow for the old heart to be regenerated and the person saved. To be convicted is not enough, repentance needs to follow. First after repentance a person get the Holy Spirit and is put in the vineyard of Christ.

That’s not what it says, though.


For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

 

[zoidar]

That’s not what it says, though.


For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

The old heart can not please God. After repentance a person can, living a new life.

 

[Hammster]

The old heart can not please God. After repentance a person can, living a new life.

Isn’t repentance pleasing to God?

 

[Neostarwcc]

I will answer this by a philosophical question.

Do you think God could offer someone salvation without having jesus borne their sins? Do you think it would be just and righteous to do so?

Yes. Calvinists don't deny the complete, total, sufficient and perfect death of Christ on the cross. Calvinism also states that Jesus's death was and is ABLE to save the whole world but it's more that his death won't save all because of how we believe Christ's sheep come to Christ. We believe that they cannot go on their own power but that God has to change their heart,pride, and sinful nature for salvation to occur anyway because of the complete and total unableness for ANYONE to come to Christ on their own power or by their own means as Christ says in (John 6:44,66). Basically, salvation is purely, completely and totally 100% a work of God. God gets all the glory and God will not fail to save even one person that God wanted and elected to save from before the foundation of the world.

Numerous times in scripture we see that Christians were predestined and elected by God by both Christ himself and by the Apostles? Why is that? John writes down the answer in

Arminians have a different opinion of this fact that say that it was due to the foreknowledge of God the Father. He looked into the future and saw who would accept him and who would not. The problem with that is, if God saw who would accept him, how do we come to him in the first place? Like I said, we are completely and totally helpless due to our fallen nature to come to God on our own. So in God's foreknowledge of the Future, how did we come to him? We cannot come to him unless he grants it. So if God looked into the future without his election, he would have saw him having to punish all of mankind. That's why he sent his son. To die for those who he and Jesus wanted to spend the rest of eternity with. And this was according to the purpose of his will.

Yes, God is completely 100% just and righteous and gets all of the glory because of the work that Christ did for us all on the Cross. That was why the messiah came into the world, to die for our sins. Like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:3, that's the gospel. But the word our could mean the whole world or it could mean those written in the book of life. But Paul basically tells us the answer when he said "With accordance to the scriptures." What was the general message of God in the Old Testament to the world for Salvation? What was the general message of all of the Prophets? The salvation of God's chosen people. God promised Abraham that through him all nations of the world will be blessed, yes. God promised Abraham descendants as numerous as the stars but, God promised Abraham his chosen people. Even the Jews believe this but they believe that only they are the chosen people. But, then Abraham wouldn't have chosen people from all around the world as numerous as the stars. There would only be very few Jews saved if that were the case.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I came to think of one more thing. If Jesus didn't bear all sins in the world, how could he have power over all sin in the world? Was his victory on the cross a partial victory over evil or a complete victory over all works of the devil?

That's actually a good question. I don't have an answer for that except maybe that Jesus is God and could have power over all sin in the world. His death was completely 100% victorious that much is clear from scripture. I don't have an answer for that.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Your saying when Saul/Paul was persecuting Christians he was a sheep and not a goat.
Does that not mean: Saul/Paul was never "lost" or not a sheep?

Paul was a lost and confused sheep who was predestined by God to become an Apostle to spread the gospel and preach to the gentiles. From the very second he was born (And before that) this was in God's plan. Same with the other apostles. Do you think God just chose them all randomly willy nilly? No, he predestined them to become apostles before they were even born.

 

[zoidar]

Isn’t repentance pleasing to God?

It is, but I don't think that's what the quoted verses is about. I think it's about the unregenerated man can't live a pleasing life to God.

 

[Hammster]

It is, but I don't think that's what the quoted verses is about. I think it's about the unregenerated man can't live a pleasing life to God.

How does that change anything?

 

[zoidar]

How does that change anything?

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

I think it's about the unregenerated man can't live a pleasing life (in faith) to God. But he can repent if he is convicted.

 

[Hammster]

I think it's about the unregenerated man can't live a pleasing life (in faith) to God. But he can repent.

It says, though, that he doesn’t subject himself to the law of God. Repent is a command, thus a law. So he doesn’t want to subject himself to that law, nor does he want to.

 

[zoidar]

It says, though, that he doesn’t subject himself to the law of God. Repent is a command, thus a law. So he doesn’t want to subject himself to that law, nor does he want to.

He can't and won't on his own, but by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

He can't and won't on his own, but by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

That’s the opposite of what’s said. The law comes through the Holy Spirit.

Here’s something else to consider.

Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”
— Matthew 15:17-20

There’s no “unless clause”.

And this


Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
— Galatians 5:19-21

Just some things to ponder.

 

[bling]

I think the demons believing in Christ and the faith of a believer is different. When James mentions the demons believing that is more related to knowledge of rather than the trust you mention. Are you asking what makes a believer different than a non believer? Nothing internal. Faith is not from oneself but a gift of God. It’s not part of you and never came from within.

Virtually all Humans are given the gift from God of sight, hearing, breathing, smelling and so on. There also appears to be the gift of "faith" for all mature adults (made in the image of God). This general faith can become a saving faith when directed toward God to accept His Love. If you have faith in Christ/God, but are still unwilling to humbly accept God's Love as pure charity you will not be saved.

 

[bling]

Paul was a lost and confused sheep who was predestined by God to become an Apostle to spread the gospel and preach to the gentiles. From the very second he was born (And before that) this was in God's plan. Same with the other apostles. Do you think God just chose them all randomly willy nilly? No, he predestined them to become apostles before they were even born.

There are many things God predestines and so they will happen just as He planned. Everything else is perfectly foreknown by God from the beginning of time, but that does not mean God foreordained everything to happen. God can tell Paul what will happen to him and what he must/will do in Paul’s future. Paul’s future is an unchangeable historic happening for God at the end of time, but since God is outside of time and omnipresent all the historic happenings of humans are known perfectly by God throughout all of time.