Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, Augustine hardly invented monergism. In actual fact, as you know, his basis was found in scripture itself, and he stood firmly with the Church in refuting any form of works-based salvation.

then all the churches had it all wrong for the first 350 years of Christianity?

 

[Dave L]

no thise are just a false accusations.

If Christ died for all, why aren't all saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If Christ died for all, why aren't all saved?

Because some deny Christ and Christ will deny them.

 

[Dave L]

Because some deny Christ and Christ will deny them.

= Pelagianism

 

[bbbbbbb]

then all the churches had it all wrong for the first 350 years of Christianity?

Using that logic, the Catholic church suddenly got it right sometime after the first four centuries of Christianity and still has it right in their semi-Pelagian theology.

 

[BNR32FAN]

= Pelagianism

How do you figure that? Are atheists pelagianists?

 

[Dave L]

How do you figure that? Are atheists pelagianists?

Yes and visa versa. Free will is practical atheism since God might as well not exist. If people just choose to save themselves.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes and visa versa. Free will is practical atheism since God might as well not exist. If people just choose to save themselves.

See what your doing here is twisting the actual meaning of Pelagianism into whatever you want it to be. Atheists can’t be pelagianists because they don’t believe in God, heaven, or eternal life. It’s all nonsense to them because they only believe in what they can prove to exist.

 

[Dave L]

See what your doing here is twisting the actual meaning of Pelagianism into whatever you want it to be. Atheists can’t be pelagianists because they don’t believe in God, heaven, or eternal life. It’s all nonsense to them because they only believe in what they can prove to exist.

I'm saying Pelagianism is as Godless as Atheism. So are the contemporary "Christian" versions.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm saying Pelagianism is as Godless as Atheism. So are the contemporary "Christian" versions.

Which "Christian" versions do you think are as Godless as Atheism?

 

[Dave L]

Which "Christian" versions do you think are as Godless as Atheism?

Those who depend on themselves to initiate salvation as opposed to those who depend on God alone.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which "Christian" versions do you think are as Godless as Atheism?

Anyone who isn’t a Calvinist which means basically everyone up until the 16th century.

 

[Dave L]

Anyone who isn’t a Calvinist which means basically everyone up until the 16th century.

Calvin was an Augustinian. Augustine followed Paul.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Anyone who isn’t a Calvinist which means basically everyone up until the 16th century.

Calm down here. You are just being silly. As you have seen, and agree, monergism was believed and taught by such eminent folks as Augustine who, as I understand, lived sometime prior to the sixteenth century.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Calm down here. You are just being silly. As you have seen, and agree, monergism was believed and taught by such eminent folks as Augustine who, as I understand, lived sometime prior to the sixteenth century.

What other such folks are you referring to?

 

[bbbbbbb]

What other such folks are you referring to?

I suppose we ought to start with folks such as John, Paul, Peter, and, yes, James.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I suppose we ought to start with folks such as John, Paul, Peter, and, yes, James.

first I would like to say that I really do appreciate your kindness and politeness during our discussions and I hope I have not inadvertently replied to you in an unkind manner. I often reply while I’m at work when I have a couple spare minutes and I often fail to include kind remarks in my posts which can easily cause them to be misconstrued as curt. So I just wanted to take a moment to convey my appreciation and intention in our discussion as being friendly and not rude or discourteous. Sometimes my posts are just too short and blunt.

About your reply, I was referring to the ECF’s writings outside of scripture. My point was that Augustine was quite solitary in his monergistic theology as far as the ECF’s writings are concerned and we agree that the church did coax him to recant his monergistic writings as they did not hold to that theology.

As for the New Testament authors it is not hard to find synergetic theology scattered throughout their writings and the gospel.

 

[bbbbbbb]

first I would like to say that I really do appreciate your kindness and politeness during our discussions and I hope I have not inadvertently replied to you in an unkind manner. I often reply while I’m at work when I have a couple spare minutes and I often fail to include kind remarks in my posts which can easily cause them to be misconstrued as curt. So I just wanted to take a moment to convey my appreciation and intention in our discussion as being friendly and not rude or discourteous. Sometimes my posts are just too short and blunt.

About your reply, I was referring to the ECF’s writings outside of scripture. My point was that Augustine was quite solitary in his monergistic theology as far as the ECF’s writings are concerned and we agree that the church did coax him to recant his monergistic writings as they did not hold to that theology.

As for the New Testament authors it is not hard to find synergetic theology scattered throughout their writings and the gospel.

Thank you for your kind explanation. On my part I do try to keep focused on the issue at hand.

As for the ECFs, I tend to hold them in much lower regard simply because they began introducing strains of theology which were either entirely unknown to the writers of the New Testament or, at best, implicit in some of the NT writings. Synergism and monergism is an excellent example. We can find passages in the NT which speak clearly to each side. IMO that creates a difficult dichotomy such that if one chooses one view over the other then one much perforce either ignore scriptural passages which oppose one's theology or create explanations which nullify the opposing side.

A classic example would be Pharaoh. In his confrontations with Moses and Aaron his heart was hardened. Scripture states in equal numbers that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God hardened his heart. So, the classic question is who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Strict monergists would emphatically say that it was God (buttressed by Paul's clear teaching in Romans) and that Pharaoh is said to have hardened his heart, but the truth is that God permitted Pharaoh to harden his heart. Strict synergists hold that Pharaoh, of his own free will, hardened his own heart and that God permitted his to harden his heart, but actually did not harden it Himself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for your kind explanation. On my part I do try to keep focused on the issue at hand.

As for the ECFs, I tend to hold them in much lower regard simply because they began introducing strains of theology which were either entirely unknown to the writers of the New Testament or, at best, implicit in some of the NT writings. Synergism and monergism is an excellent example. We can find passages in the NT which speak clearly to each side. IMO that creates a difficult dichotomy such that if one chooses one view over the other then one much perforce either ignore scriptural passages which oppose one's theology or create explanations which nullify the opposing side.

A classic example would be Pharaoh. In his confrontations with Moses and Aaron his heart was hardened. Scripture states in equal numbers that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God hardened his heart. So, the classic question is who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Strict monergists would emphatically say that it was God (buttressed by Paul's clear teaching in Romans) and that Pharaoh is said to have hardened his heart, but the truth is that God permitted Pharaoh to harden his heart. Strict synergists hold that Pharaoh, of his own free will, hardened his own heart and that God permitted his to harden his heart, but actually did not harden it Himself.

Yes I’ve been in that discussion before and it is a tough one to really understand. I admit that God did tell Moses that He would harden Pharaoh’s heart before even Moses went to talk with Pharaoh. What I believe was that God being omniscient and omnipresent did harden Pharaoh’s heart because He knew that Pharaoh would not repent anyway and was destined to face eternity in hell, so He used Pharaoh to set an example of what happens to those who oppose God. At that time Pharaoh was probably one of the most powerful men in the world and an excellent candidate to show God’s might and glory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for your kind explanation. On my part I do try to keep focused on the issue at hand.

As for the ECFs, I tend to hold them in much lower regard simply because they began introducing strains of theology which were either entirely unknown to the writers of the New Testament or, at best, implicit in some of the NT writings. Synergism and monergism is an excellent example. We can find passages in the NT which speak clearly to each side. IMO that creates a difficult dichotomy such that if one chooses one view over the other then one much perforce either ignore scriptural passages which oppose one's theology or create explanations which nullify the opposing side.

A classic example would be Pharaoh. In his confrontations with Moses and Aaron his heart was hardened. Scripture states in equal numbers that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God hardened his heart. So, the classic question is who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Strict monergists would emphatically say that it was God (buttressed by Paul's clear teaching in Romans) and that Pharaoh is said to have hardened his heart, but the truth is that God permitted Pharaoh to harden his heart. Strict synergists hold that Pharaoh, of his own free will, hardened his own heart and that God permitted his to harden his heart, but actually did not harden it Himself.

Notice Romans 9:22 and the similarities with Romans 2:4-5.


“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬