Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

[bbbbbbb]

I don't think you mean Rom 3:21.

You are correct. I actually meant Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank you for point out my error.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For what it's worth:

• I think references to eternal fire, etc, have to be taken in the context of the OT reference, in which clearly they don't last forever. I don't agree with claims that eternal means "for an aeon." However the Bible uses eternal non-literally a lot.
• I think Paul is pretty clear in 1 Cor 3:12 that there can be consequences without having people in eternal torment. Whether that passages applies to everyone or just Christians is up for debate, but it certainly shows that there can be consequences short of hell.
• The Rev is so symbolic that I don't use it for doctrine. The final vision in Rev 21 and 22 do not include torment, but just how you reconcile that with the pit is open for discussion.

Personally, I think Jesus' teachings about judgement could be understood as finite punishment, particularly outside of Matthew (who seems particularly focused on judgement).

I understand where you are coming from. My point is that there are many different interpretations of these things such that the poster to whom I replied, could easily rebut these standard proof texts. Universalism, despite its current manifestation in the agnostic, if not athestic, UU denomination, actually has a very lengthy history, as I am sure you know, of extremely strong biblical theology. The UU seems to be a marriage of desperation - one group which historically was strongly Trinitaration and the other which was focused on denying the Trinity.

 

[hedrick]

You are correct. I actually meant Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank you for point out my error.

As for 6:23, it's common for exegesis to say that death is eternal death, with eternal life as parallel. The problem with this is that earlier in chapter 6 Paul has us go through death with Christ into eternal life. So it's just as likely that since everyone sins, everyone dies, but Christ brings eternal life out of that. Whether the eternal life is for everyone or just those in Christ, or whether everyone ends up in Christ, are questions that wouldn't be answered by that verse.

 

[martymonster]

I suppose it comes down to how you define "death" as in Romans 3:21 and whether or not the lake of fire which burns forever and ever in Revelation 20 is some sort of campfire that will run out of fuel once it has consumed everyone who is cast into it and thus cease to burn.

Well, it does depend on how you define death, the problem being, that you aren't allowed to define anything. Scripture defines the meaning of different words. Death is no exception. The lake of fire is purely symbolic, just like everything else in scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, it does depend on how you define death, the problem being, that you aren't allowed to define anything. Scripture defines the meaning of different words. Death is no exception. The lake of fire is purely symbolic, just like everything else in scripture.

Interesting. It is comforting to know that all of the individuals in scripture never actually existed, but were purely symbolic and somehow these symbols managed to create pages and pages of symbols for us to enjoy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As for 6:23, it's common for exegesis to say that death is eternal death, with eternal life as parallel. The problem with this is that earlier in chapter 6 Paul has us go through death with Christ into eternal life. So it's just as likely that since everyone sins, everyone dies, but Christ brings eternal life out of that. Whether the eternal life is for everyone or just those in Christ, or whether everyone ends up in Christ, are questions that wouldn't be answered by that verse.

Indeed, that is the very problem of using that verse in isolation, which is why I phrased my response as I did. As you know, we live in a world which plays quite fast and loose with scripture and those who do not, even though they may disagree with each other, are to be commended for the care they exercise in reaching their conclusions.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Hi Shrewd Manager,

Just so I'm clear on what you're asserting, you don't believe the bible teaches there are eternal consequences for sin for those who reject Jesus' free gift of salvation?

Yes hello Kris Jordan, I'm tentatively proposing that our God does not necessarily treat:

• the young rape victim who suicides with a burning (albeit misplaced) hatred for Jesus for not saving her by consigning her to an eternal bbq; and
• her rapist and tormentor who in the last moments of his stellar career decides to confess and repent (with as much sincerity as he can muster in his blackened heart) by welcoming him into eternal bliss with open arms.

When you take a moment to consider a justice model that in essence consists of one unfathomably enormous punishment for any who die rejecting Jesus and one fabulous reward for any who die confessing, you'll see that it's unworkable, given all the many and varied ways ppl might get there.

If man's justice system is better than God's (ie more condign and effective), then there must be something wrong with the theology, right?

So I daresay it's time for Christians to do some careful review and (while we love the dogmatism and superficial efficiency of a 'sheep-good goats-bad' 'one size fits all'-type justice model) appreciate that God is in fact perfect and will render justice and equity in a holy and glorious fashion, taking all things into account.

Is this making any sense to you?

 

[martymonster]

Interesting. It is comforting to know that all of the individuals in scripture never actually existed, but were purely symbolic and somehow these symbols managed to create pages and pages of symbols for us to enjoy.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I get that it is a bit of a pill to swallow, but that's what Paul is saying, here. Here is the word used for examples.

τύπος
tupos
too'-pos
From G5180; a die (as struck), that is, (by implication) a stamp or scar; by analogy a shape, that is, a statue, (figuratively) style or resemblance; specifically a sampler (“type”), that is, a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): - en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.

Another way to say it, would be to say the are parables, or shadows. That is not to say that it is not all true.

Another example:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam was a figure of Christ. Let that sink in.

 

[bbbbbbb]

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I get that it is a bit of a pill to swallow, but that's what Paul is saying, here. Here is the word used for examples.

τύπος
tupos
too'-pos
From G5180; a die (as struck), that is, (by implication) a stamp or scar; by analogy a shape, that is, a statue, (figuratively) style or resemblance; specifically a sampler (“type”), that is, a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): - en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.

Another way to say it, would be to say the are parables, or shadows. That is not to say that it is not all true.

Another example:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam was a figure of Christ. Let that sink in.

Yup, and from that we can conclude that there is nothing in the Bible, including the Bible itself that is not symbolic. Paul, the symbol, managed somehow to write (using a symbolic quill and parchment and ink) all those symbolic words without any actual historic or physical meaning whatsoever. Neat!

 

[Jipsah]

It shows extreme ignorance of spiritual reality. People choose life or death. They could choose life. Those who do not will be torturing themselves.

Not if the general assumption is true, and that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ end up in hell by default.

 

[Jipsah]

There is no time in Hell.
Hell is the reward for people who do not want to be with God.
That's extremely fair. Don't want, don't get.
But, people torment themselves in Hell. Also very fair.

Nah, ain't buying it. First, Scripture says there is no place where God is not. And even if there were, I suspect that most of the people who will land in hell if that eternal torture doctrine is true, far from fleeing God, have never given Him any thought at all. This is just another attempt to make the idea of eternal torture sound just, when in fact it casts God as a pitiless monster.

 

[Jipsah]

If one hates God and refuses fellowship with Love, and God respects their choice - why blame Him for the outcome.

Maybe because He determines the outcome? Let's face it, no human created hell, or determined that eternal torture should be the fate on most of humanity. The "poor God, there's just nothing He can do about it" thing is ludicrous.

Imagine an eternity without any love... But they saw Love personified and said crucify Him.

Love Personified has decreed that those who reject His love must be tortured forever. What's wrong with that picture?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

View attachment 272712

1. God is not in hell so he is not torturing anyone there. One can read of the descriptions of the inhabitants in hell and God is not among them.
2. God is not sending his enemies to hell because they are his enemies. One can read the list of misdeeds those sent to hell did and most of them are against people. He does not want them in Heaven because they will continue to do those same Things making heaven into hell. SO they go there others like them who liked that sort of behaviour go. That they are no longer the stronger ones there is not God's fault. He gave them opportunity to choose otherwise. (depite the theology that says he did not.)

So, God is not there doing anything to anyone and people are sent to hell because of their deeds. Shall not the Judge of all the Earth do rightly?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yes hello Kris Jordan, I'm tentatively proposing that our God does not necessarily treat:

• the young rape victim who suicides with a burning (albeit misplaced) hatred for Jesus for not saving her by consigning her to an eternal bbq; and
• her rapist and tormentor who in the last moments of his stellar career decides to confess and repent (with as much sincerity as he can muster in his blackened heart) by welcoming him into eternal bliss with open arms.

When you take a moment to consider a justice model that in essence consists of one unfathomably enormous punishment for any who die rejecting Jesus and one fabulous reward for any who die confessing, you'll see that it's unworkable, given all the many and varied ways ppl might get there.

If man's justice system is better than God's (ie more condign and effective), then there must be something wrong with the theology, right?

So I daresay it's time for Christians to do some careful review and (while we love the dogmatism and superficial efficiency of a 'sheep-good goats-bad' 'one size fits all'-type justice model) appreciate that God is in fact perfect and will render justice and equity in a holy and glorious fashion, taking all things into account.

Is this making any sense to you?

I don't agree completely. The fundamental issue is not that people sin. It is that they are dead. That is the starting point of judgement. The person who has done nothing especially wrong is just as much a sinner as the person who is a career criminal. For sure it bugs people to think that a person can be saved after a life of crime. Yet that happens. The thief on the adjacent cross is the perfect example. It does not list his crimes but crucifixion was reserved for more serious offences.

When a person repents and accepts Christ, their history is erased. Those who reject God's mercy and grace face the consequences.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Nah, ain't buying it. First, Scripture says there is no place where God is not. And even if there were, I suspect that most of the people who will land in hell if that eternal torture doctrine is true, far from fleeing God, have never given Him any thought at all. This is just another attempt to make the idea of eternal torture sound just, when in fact it casts God as a pitiless monster.

Turn it around. How can a dead person enter heaven? Everyone is born dead in trespass and sin. Would you invite a dead person to your party? Those who are born again are alive. They are welcomed into the presence of God. I don't accept the traditional view of hell. However, it is not going to be any fun at all. Wailing and gnashing of teeth and all that.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nah, ain't buying it. First, Scripture says there is no place where God is not.

Except for, when it does.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And even if there were, I suspect that most of the people who will land in hell if that eternal torture doctrine is true, far from fleeing God, have never given Him any thought at all.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

This is just another attempt to make the idea of eternal torture sound just, when in fact it casts God as a pitiless monster.

The torment is mental anguish.

noun
/ˈTôrment/
severe physical or mental suffering.
"their deaths have left both families in torment"

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:29
and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.



God took pity on all humanity.

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners,
Christ died for us.

And those who reject forgiveness are in a Hell of their own desire.
They are in Hell already.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't agree completely. The fundamental issue is not that people sin. It is that they are dead. That is the starting point of judgement. The person who has done nothing especially wrong is just as much a sinner as the person who is a career criminal. For sure it bugs people to think that a person can be saved after a life of crime. Yet that happens. The thief on the adjacent cross is the perfect example. It does not list his crimes but crucifixion was reserved for more serious offences.

When a person repents and accepts Christ, their history is erased. Those who reject God's mercy and grace face the consequences.

So the dead are those who reject God's mercy. The dead know nothing. Only the Spirit gives life. The dead can't enliven themselves.

Does it glorify God to wake the dead just to consign them to eternal torment for rejecting His mercy in their ignorance and unbelief?

So in my example you'd conclude the rapist gets in and the victim gets punished, simply because he confessed and she didn't? And nothing else matters to God?

You're just playing a shell game here, and the outcome is still neither just nor merciful on any standard. I sincerely hope you don't use that shamefully immoral dogma as an excuse to 'blame the victim' in daily life.

 

[FineLinen]

Except for, when it does.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There are 5 qualifications for "everlasting punishment" /aionios kolasis. What are they?

These 5 qualifications apply to Old Covenant clean animals.

Why? ? ?

 

[FineLinen]

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9:

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

 

[martymonster]

Except for, when it does.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”




The torment is mental anguish.

noun
/ˈTôrment/
severe physical or mental suffering.
"their deaths have left both families in torment"

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:29
and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.



God took pity on all humanity.

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners,
Christ died for us.

And those who reject forgiveness are in a Hell of their own desire.
They are in Hell already.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's one thing to be able to quote a bunch of scriptures.... it's quite another to understand what they actually mean.