Pretrib Discussion

[Biblewriter]

Where are ECF references to a GAP in the 70 weeks?

I apologize for the long delay in sufficiently answering you. I have been gravely ill for a long time, involing three hospitalizations and two surgeries, plus a long recuperation at home.

The information you requested was given in posts number 59 and 60 in this thread.

 

[Tra Phull]

I hope you have a great recovery, Biblewriter, and was sorry to hear of your illness.
Thanks for the references.

 

[thomas15]

To me this all comes down to either taking the words of the Bible seriously or taking the words of Augustine/Calvin seriously.

The real pity here is we all have concordances on our shelves and dictionaries and Bibles galore but we settle our theological curiosity from various sources outside of the Word of God.

 

[summerville]

As the following post came up in another thread which is already overly long, and as it has very little connection to the subject of that thread, which was falsely titled "The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism," I am re-posting it here as the OP for a new thread.

But before addressing THIS post, I will add that the poster, whose handle is “sovereigngrace,” has been making a great point of the fact that there is no single scripture that explicitly “teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?”

In pressing this point, this poster is ignoring two explicitly stated passages of scripture. The first of these is:

“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."
(Isaiah 28:9-10)

This passage explicitly states that the whole picture of God’s plan is never presented in a single passage of scripture. It was intentionally scattered around, making careful study a basic requirement of even beginning to understand God’s revealed plans.

And the second of the explicitly stated passages of scripture being flatly ignored by this poster is:

“And the disciples came and said to Him, ‘Why do You speak to them in parables?’ He answered and said to them, ‘Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.’ ” (Matthew 13:10-12)

This passage tells us that the Holy Scriptures are intentionally designed to not only reveal the plan of God to His own, but to conceal it from unbelievers. It is pysically impossible to even begin to understand the Holy Scriptures witout first deciding to simply believe whatever might be found there.



Addressing all the errors in this post will take very much space, involving numerous separate posts. So I will not even try to address them individually in this OP. But I will begin by simply stating that, in order to adequately address a doctrinal system you think is mistaken, you need to begin by coming to an understanding of what the advocates of that doctrine actually teach. This is something that “sovereigngrace” has failed to do. For this post presents ideas presented by some poorly taught advocates of pre-tribulationism as it they were what is generally taught in the pre-tribulaton camp. I cannot say this poster has never bumped up against any of the ideas presented in the post above. But I can assure everyone who reads this, that what is presented in this post IS NOT scriptural pre-tribulationism and is NOT what was taught by the classical dispensational teachers.

Dispensationalism is pretty new.....

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

 

[summerville]

I'll throw my take on the subject out there.

We know from Daniel's 70th week there will be a time of tribulation, Jeremiah called it the time of Jacob's trouble.

We know that during this time the man of sin/ the antichrist, will rise and is given power to reign for 42 months. We know from scripture this man will sit in the temple and declare himself God.

We know from Rev. that Christ will destroy this antichrist at His second coming.

So now we know the tribulation will take place before the second coming. The question is, when will this resurrection take place that Paul speaks of.

Paul said that this resurrection will take place "at the coming of the Lord." 1Thes. 4:15. And again, vs. 16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven."

So there you have it, it will be at the second coming, right? Not so fast! Is it possible this coming of the Lord, His descension from heaven is not the second coming?

It's true there is no direct scripture that states this is not the second coming, but there is also no direct scripture this is the second coming! It's taken for granted, oh this is the second coming.

Does it seem strange to you that Paul starts out describing the resurrection with these words,"Behold, I show you a mystery?" Paul is telling us something we don't know.

This word in the Greek as used by Paul here means,
Usage: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.

The resurrection was no secret or was not hidden from the saints of Paul's day.

The Book of Daniel is history not prophecy. It was written during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes because he defiled the Temple and persecuted the Jews.. trying to Hellenize them.. That is the reason for the Maccabean Revolt and the Hannukah.

 

[summerville]

The difficulty many of us have today is getting any Pretrib to answer any question directly. That is why I responded by trying to get a Pretribber to answer Question 1:

Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?

The tribulation was during the first century from 66 AD to 70 AD when the Gentiles trampled Jerusalem. Darius the Mede is not known outside the Bible. I don't understand what Darius the Mede had to do with the Chaldeans???


For a while, the Zealots persecuted and killed their opponents in Galilee, Samaria, Judea, Idumea, and perhaps elsewhere as well, but eventually they were isolated to Jerusalem as the Romans gradually captured those territories. Once the Zealots were isolated to Jerusalem, Josephus is clear that they continued to oppose and kill their opponents there as well (see the previous post). Were Christians among them?

Here are the words of Jesus warning His followers of a time when they would need to flee:
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains… For then there will be great tribulation…” (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).

“But when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains… For in those days there will be tribulation…” (Mark 13:14, 19).

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her… For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people” (Luke 21:20-21, 23).

Did All of the Judean Christians Flee to Pella?

 

[Biblewriter]

Dispensationalism is pretty new.....

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

Yes, he "is considered" this. But two recently published books have completely demolished this "consideration." The first one in "Dispensationaism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, which traces NUMEROUS examples of dispensational doctrine being CLEARLY taught in the 1600s and 1700s, before Darby was even born. And the second one is "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (myself.) This book PROVES that the central concepts of dispensationalism were CLEARLY taught in some of the very oldest Christian writings that have survived to the present day, and continued to be taught up to at least the fifth century.

Together, these two books PROVE that Dispensationalism was taught in the beginnings of the church, and was revived almost immediately when the publication of the KJV in 1611 first made Bibles widely available at a cost ordinary people could afford.

 

[summerville]

Yes, he "is considered" this. But two recently published books have completely demolished this :consideration." The fiirst one in "Dispensationaism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, which traces NUMEROUS examples of dispensational doctrine being CLEARLY taught in the 1600s and 1700s, before Darby was even born. And the secind one is "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (myself.) This book PROVES that the centra concepts of dispensationalism were CLEARLY taught in some of the very oldest Christian writings that have survived to the present day, and continued to be taught up to at least the fifth century.

Together, these two books PROVE that Dispensationalism was taught in the beginnings of the church, and was revived almost immediately when the publication of the KJV in 1611 first made Bibles widely available at a cost ordinary people could afford.

Yes, he "is considered" this. But two recently published books have completely demolished this :consideration." The fiirst one in "Dispensationaism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, which traces NUMEROUS examples of dispensational doctrine being CLEARLY taught in the 1600s and 1700s, before Darby was even born. And the secind one is "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (myself.) This book PROVES that the centra concepts of dispensationalism were CLEARLY taught in some of the very oldest Christian writings that have survived to the present day, and continued to be taught up to at least the fifth century.

Together, these two books PROVE that Dispensationalism was taught in the beginnings of the church, and was revived almost immediately when the publication of the KJV in 1611 first made Bibles widely available at a cost ordinary people could afford.

It was pretty rare.. Samuel Untermyer paid Scofield to write a Bible and then he funded publishing.. It was entirely political. Untermyer also blackmailed Woodrow Wilson to put Brandeis on the Supreme Court.

 

[Biblewriter]

It was pretty rare.. Samuel Untermyer paid Scofield to write a Bible and then he funded publishing.. It was entirely political. Untermyer also blackmailed Woodrow Wilson to put Brandeis on the Supreme Court.

Actually, the series of commentaries written by William Lowth in the teens and twenties of the 1700s, which mentioned the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland and their conversion after returning so many times as to amount to insisting upon the point, was the most widely circulated series of commentaries in England during the mid 1700s.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Where are ECF references to a GAP in the 70 weeks?

Where are ECF references to (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Nowhere!

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

 

[Biblewriter]

The tribulation was during the first century from 66 AD to 70 AD when the Gentiles trampled Jerusalem. Darius the Mede is not known outside the Bible. I don't understand what Darius the Mede had to do with the Chaldeans???


For a while, the Zealots persecuted and killed their opponents in Galilee, Samaria, Judea, Idumea, and perhaps elsewhere as well, but eventually they were isolated to Jerusalem as the Romans gradually captured those territories. Once the Zealots were isolated to Jerusalem, Josephus is clear that they continued to oppose and kill their opponents there as well (see the previous post). Were Christians among them?

Here are the words of Jesus warning His followers of a time when they would need to flee:
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains… For then there will be great tribulation…” (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).

“But when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains… For in those days there will be tribulation…” (Mark 13:14, 19).

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her… For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people” (Luke 21:20-21, 23).

Did All of the Judean Christians Flee to Pella?

This is nothing but the typical errors of Preterism
.

 

[Jack Terrence]

This is nothing but the typical errors of Preterism
.

Uh, no it is not error.

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in THE tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 1:9

John was in the tribulation with the seven churches of Asia.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Although I already responded to this post, I must add that this at least appears to be intentionally deceptive. Of course no one who wrote before the Revelation was given spoke of the thousand year reign, because that was the first place in the scriptures that specified that the reign would last 1000 years. But the deception does not end there. For all 12 of the writers before Papias that spoke of the end times only mentioned them in articles that were actually about other subjects. So not even one of these Christians actually “wrote about the end times.” All they did was mention them.

This is typical of the deceptive nature of almost everything this poster has posted in this entire discussion, both in this thread and the first one, alleging “facts” that are either incorrect or meaningless. And this appears to be done in a willful attempt to mislead the readers.

When did any of them mention, teach or insinuate a future millennium saturated with sin, death and the wicked? Papias didn't even teach that such was in his future millennium. It seems like you are trying to rewrite history.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Since you want to draw doctrine from early Christian writers, note that they also said:

AD30-AD130

Here are a few early quotes re a climactic coming.

The Didache (or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles)
Palestine
(A.D. 65-80)

Chapter X

5 Remember, Lord, thy Church, to redeem it from every evil, and to perfect it in thy love, and gather it together from the four winds, even that which has been sanctified for thy kingdom which thou hast prepared for it; for thine is the kingdom and the glory for ever.
6 Let grace come, and let this world pass away.

The Didache’s transcript (which is actually a petition) looks forward to the Second Coming (the day of redemption), when the saints will finally receive their new glorified bodies and be perfected. The writer looks for both Christ and a new righteous arrangement that He will introduce, with the succinct appeal: “Let grace come.” The narrative essentially embodies an earnest supplication for the Lord to rescue the Church from its alien earthly sojourn and introduce eternal justice. Whether the statement “Let grace come” is referring to the personally appearance of Christ Himself, to the perfect state He will introduce, or to both matters little, the early writer connects this impending event with the end of the world: “Let grace come, and let this world pass away.”

The grandsons of Jude
Palestine
(1st century)

Eusebius from his classic work The History of the Church says, speaking of the grandsons of Jude, “the grandsons of Jude ... when asked [by the Emperor Domitian] about Christ and his kingdom--what it was like, and where it would appear – they explained that it was not of this world or anywhere on earth but angelic and in heaven, and would be established at the end of the world, when he would come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and give to every one according to his works."

Here, Jude articulates the traditional expectation of the Amillennialist in regard to the Second Coming. First it doesn’t happen until “the end of the world.” Secondly it witnesses the judgement and resurrection of all the living and dead. This clear climactic account is said to occur when Christ comes in all His “glory.”

Mathetes (author unknown, Mathetes simply means "a disciple”)
Greece
(A.D 90)

Chapter VII – The Manifestation of Christ

For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing?

The Shepherd of Hermas
Rome, Italy
(written in 88-99 AD)

Chapter III

The tower which you see building is myself, the Church, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion.

Chapter III

The white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure.

Chapter V

For if the building be finished, there will not be more room for any one, but he will be rejected. This privilege, however, will belong only to him who has now been placed near the tower.”

Chapter VIII

When the tower is finished and built, then comes the end; and I assure you it will be soon finished.

Fourth Similitude (or Symbol)

"Those," he said, "which are budding are the righteous who are to live in the world to come; for the coming world is the summer of the righteous, but the winter of sinners. When, therefore, the mercy of the Lord shines forth, then shall they be made manifest who are the servants of God, and all men shall be made manifest ... the heathen and sinners, like the withered trees which you saw, will be found to be those who have been withered and unfruitful in that world, and shall be burnt as wood, and made manifest, because their actions were evil during their lives. For the sinners shall be consumed because they sinned and did not repent, and the heathen shall be burned because they knew not Him who created them.

Chapter IX

... Give heed to the judgment that is to come … for after the tower is finished, you will wish to do good, but will find no opportunity … their groans should ascend to the Lord, and ye be shut out with all your goods beyond the gate of the tower.

1 Clement
Bishop of Rome, Italy
(Died around 99 A.D.)

1 Clement 34

The good workman receiveth the bread of his work with boldness, but the slothful and careless dareth not look his employer in the face. It is therefore needful that we should be zealous unto well-doing, for of Him are all things: since He forewarneth us saying, Behold, the Lord, and His reward is before His face, to recompense each man according to his work.

1 Clement 57:2-7

Because I called and ye obeyed not, and I held out words and ye heeded not, but made My councils of none effect, and were disobedient unto My reproofs; therefore I also will laugh at your destruction, and will rejoice over you when ruin cometh upon you, and when confusion overtaketh you suddenly, and your overthrow is at hand like a whirlwind. Because I called and ye obeyed not, and I held out words and ye heeded not, but made My councils of none effect, and were disobedient unto My reproofs; therefore I also will laugh at your destruction, and will rejoice over you when ruin cometh upon you, and when confusion overtaketh you suddenly, and your overthrow is at hand like a whirlwind, or when ye call upon Me, yet will I not here you.

1 Clement 59:1-2

The Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world.

Clement demonstrates that he believed that God’s people will obviously be on the earth and be protected right up until “the end.” The revelation of Christ seals the final deliverance of the elect and brings the curtain down on time. This is a classic Amillenialist belief, if “the end’ means “the end.”

2 Clement
Rome, Italy
(Early 2nd century)

2 Clement 5:5

And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal.

2nd Clement 16:3

But ye know that the day of judgment cometh even now as a burning oven, and the powers of the heavens shall melt, and all the earth as lead melting on the fire, and then shall appear the secret and open works of men.

2 Clement 17:4

For the Lord said, I come to gather together all the nations, tribes, and languages. Herein He speaketh of the day of His appearing, when He shall come and redeem us, each man according to his works.

2 Clement 17:5

And the unbelievers shall see His glory and His might: and they shall be amazed when they see the kingdom of the world given to Jesus, saying, Woe unto us, for Thou wast, and we knew it not, and believed not; and we obeyed not the presbyters when they told us of our salvation. And Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh.

2 Clement 17:6

He speaketh of that day of judgment, when men shall see those among us that live ungodly lives and dealt falsely with the commandments of Jesus Christ.

2 Clement 17:7

But the righteous, done good and endured torments and hated pleasures of the soul, when they shall behold them that have done amiss and denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds, how that they are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire, shall give glory to God, saying, There will be hope for him that hath served God with his whole heart.

2 Clement 19:3

Let us therefore practice righteousness that we may be saved unto the end. Blessed are they that obey these ordinances. Though they may endure affliction for a short time in the world, they will gather the immortal fruit of the resurrection.

We can see how the writer anticipates the wrath of God falling at the Coming of the Lord. For those not rescued at the day of the Lord it will arrive “like a burning oven” whereupon “the earth will melt, like lead melting in fire.” This is total destruction. As 2 Peter 3 graphically depicts: this world will be dissolved when Jesus comes. In the eyes of Clement a general judgment ensues. He contends: “then will appear the hidden and manifest deeds of men.” This is the day when the secrets of all men are fully and finally manifested.

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch
Syria
(A.D. 98-117)

Chapter XI (11) – I write these things to warn you

He (Jesus) died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.

This text is covered in classic Amillennial language. Ignatius places Christ’s coming “at the end of the world,” thus negating the possibility of a thousand year earthly millennium. In addition, the purpose of His coming is expressly “to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works,” not to reign from some earthly temple made by human hands. Here the whole of Adam’s race is depicted as being judged at the Lord’s return. This ancient writer certainly foresaw an all-consummating return of Jesus.

Chapter XVI — The fate of false teachers.

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, “being waxen fat,” and “become gross,” sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

Polycarp
Bishop in Smyrna, Turkey
(Born AD 68, martyred about AD 155)

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Chapter 2. An exhortation to virtue

Wherefore, girding up your loins, serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness.

Martyrdom of Polycarp
11:1-2

The proconsul then said to him, ‘I have wild beasts at hand; to these will I cast thee, except thou repent.’ But he answered, ‘Call them then, for we are not accustomed to repent of what is good in order to adopt that which is evil; and it is well for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous’. But again the proconsul said to him, ‘I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, seeing thou despisest the wild beasts, if thou wilt not repent’. But Polycarp said, ‘Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt’.”

Barnabus
Alexandria, Egypt
(A.D. 70-120)

Chapter IV – Antichrist is at Hand: Let Us Therefore Avoid Jewish Errors

The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten.

Chapter XV – The False and the True Sabbath.

When His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day … when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.

Chapter XXI – Conclusion

For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution … For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]. The Lord is near, and His reward … be ye taught of God, inquiring diligently what the Lord asks from you; and do it that ye maybe safe in the day of judgment.

The Ascension of Isaiah
Palestine
(late 1st century to early 2nd century)

Chapter 4

14. And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.
15. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed]:
16. And to all who because of (their) faith in Him have execrated Beliar and his kings. But the saints will come with the Lord with their garments which are (now) stored up on high in the seventh heaven: with the Lord they will come, whose spirits are clothed, they will descend and be present in the world, and He will strengthen those, who have been found in the body, together with the saints, in the garments of the saints, and the Lord will minister to those who have kept watch in this world.
17. And afterwards they will turn themselves upward in their garments, and their body will be left in the world.
18. the voice of the Beloved will in wrath rebuke the things of heaven and the things of earth and the things of earth and the mountains and the hills and the cities and the desert and the forests and the angel of the sun and that of the moon, and all things wherein Beliar manifested himself and acted openly in this world, and there will be [a resurrection and] a judgment in their midst in those days, and the Beloved will cause fire to go forth from Him, and it will consume all the godless, and they will be as though they had not been created.

Conclusion

An elementary study of the early church fathers’ teachings over the first 100 years after the cross shows that they saw the second coming of Jesus Christ as “the end” or “the end of the world.” They believed all the righteous would be rescued to inherit a new perfected earth. The wicked would be destroyed with this current corrupt earth. This is standard Amillennial teaching! There is a notable silence from the early writers, apart from Papias. Nowhere does he quote any of the early church fathers (apart from Papias) mention, or describe conditions on a future millennial earth or articulate any of the main tenets of the Premillennial belief. All we have is complete silence.

 

[FredVB]

I am confused about my pretrib rapture position. It is clearer to me that many troubles are coming to this world with our involvement that God is not giving us a free pass from, that we will see consequences from, before being taken out. The tribulation may come after, but I don't think civilization will last for that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am confused about my pretrib rapture position. It is clearer to me that many troubles are coming to this world with our involvement that God is not giving us a free pass from, that we will see consequences from, before being taken out. The tribulation may come after, but I don't think civilization will last for that.

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

 

[FredVB]

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Is it sensible to ask me details of basis for what I say I am confused about? That would not really be fair. But I know there are passages showing Jesus Christ will come as a thief in the night, meaning absolutely unexpectedly, and no one would know the day or the hour, Matthew 24:44, happening in a moment, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The idea that there are seven years of tribulation, which I wasn't even mentioning above, is the reference in Revelation 11:2 to forty-two months, and in Revelation 12:6 to one thousand two hundred and sixty days, and in Revelation 12:14 to a time and times and half a time, that no one knows when believers are snatched away at all would tell us it would not happen when the prophesied tribulations come, as they will be known to be fulfilling prophecies, and that being snatched away would really be expected. But I am not certain now that the numeric seven years will be the literal length. I have the perspective now that there is one reason for the time believers would be snatched from this world to be with the Lord, that is because they are in Christ and the coming judgment on the world is not for them but for those in the world still unrepentant with their wickedness and destructiveness here. But that it is timed just for that means that it should not be expected for delivering us out of any other troubles, which we are involved in with some contribution from most of us. It is at the end of the coming judgment on those in the world when Christ comes down to this world to fight those who are gathered who would actually fight God.

 

[5thKingdom]

But before addressing THIS post, I will add that the poster, whose handle is “sovereigngrace,” has been making a great point of the fact that there is no single scripture that explicitly “teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?”

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The Final Harvest of (the souls of) the Last Saints occurs BEFORE the destruction of the
Revelation Beast (aka Daniel's Fourth Beast or the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
I will provide a few passages to establish this Biblical reality:


(1) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2]
as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen". The "Final Harvest" of Saints, immediately
before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands the Last Saints
to "Come out of her, My people". And Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice" over the
destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".


(2) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet
and Revelations Beast are "cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest"
immediately before destruction of the "great harlot" [v.2] is shown as the Last Saints
are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God".
Then again [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE
SUPPER of the Lamb". And once more we see [v.2] that, when God destroys the Kingdom
of "Babylon the Great", He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".


(3) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake",
and the "Final Harvest" is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud". Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring
immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time, the Bible reveals
[v.14] the TIME for fulfillment of this event - just before the end of the "Second Woe"...
that is important.


(4) In Matthew 25 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great"
is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut". The "Final Harvest" is again shown [v.10]
again as a "Marriage" with "they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage".
Again, the "Final Harvest" occurs before the "Door was Shut". However, in this case
we see [v.11] there's a period on earth after the "Final Harvest" is finished... as the
Bible reveals "afterward came also the other [foolish] virgins". This period after the
"Door was Shut" is the current period, which the Bible specifically NAMES. as being
the "Season and Time".


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when
"the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame".
The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again,
the "Final Harvest" of the Great Tribulation Saints is shown [v.22] when "Judgment was
given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
[eternal] Kingdom".

In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of the period on earth after the
"Final Harvest" of Saints, and after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:12]
specifically names this period the "Season and Time".

This period is also shown [Rev 11:14] as the time AFTER the end of the Second Woe...
but BEFORE the start of the Third Woe. This period is also shown as the time when the
Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11] and the time BETWEEN the Beast
being "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 19:20] and the time when Satan and all
his "Kingdoms of Man" (physical/political governments) JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake.
[Rev 20:10]


Jim
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[Marilyn C]

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

The tribulation is shortened as the Lord says - 6 yrs and 11 months. The finish of Daniel`s 70 weeks is 7 years. (Matt. 24: 22, & Dan. 9: 27)

To answer you questions of 1,2 & 3 requires one to know what is the first rulership to be restored in all of God`s great kingdom. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

 

[5thKingdom]

The tribulation is shortened as the Lord says - 6 yrs and 11 months. The finish of Daniel`s 70 weeks is 7 years. (Matt. 24: 22, & Dan. 9: 27)

To answer you questions of 1,2 & 3 requires one to know what is the first rulership to be restored in all of God`s great kingdom. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Matthew 24:22 does NOT show how many days the Tribulation
is shortened. The entire Tribulation is shown as four "watches of
the night"... which you probably do not know even though the Lord
specifically NAMED each of the "watches" and the Bible gives the
duration of the FIRST "watch"... we know that the fourth watch
is cut in about half (during the "Days of Vengeance") which is why
we see MANY Scriptures talking about the ENTIRE Revelation Beast
being a duration of 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years
(42 months)... Daniel 9:7 is ONE of those verses that talks about
these 3.5 "times".


So... if you know how long a "time" is (2300 evenings/mornings)
then you know abut HALF of Fourth "watch" is "shortened"...
BUT NOTHING like your imaginary one month.


There are over TWO DOZEN different passages talking about
the EVENTS happening during the four "watches" of the Great
Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] or Daniel's
Fourth Beast or the Revelation Beast. If you cannot harmonize
ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES (and you have not come close) then,
at best, you can only offer some partial-truths... and usually
(as in this case) you cannot not even offer partial-truths.


SovereignGrace is absolutely correct saying you cannot:
"... show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of
the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year
tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?"


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