Pretrib Discussion

[sovereigngrace]

The tribulation is shortened as the Lord says - 6 yrs and 11 months. The finish of Daniel`s 70 weeks is 7 years. (Matt. 24: 22, & Dan. 9: 27)

To answer you questions of 1,2 & 3 requires one to know what is the first rulership to be restored in all of God`s great kingdom. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

I take it you do not have any passage in the sacred text that teaches this?

 

[5thKingdom]

I take it you do not have any passage in the sacred text that teaches this?

Of course I do... but it is MANY PASSAGES that support these
teachings (I provided several teachings to you but you did not
indicate WHICH teaching you wanted clarified)

Given that: I would suggest starting at the beginning.
Do you understand that Jesus specifically NAMED four
temporal "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth before He
Returns to establish the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"?

Assuming this may be NEW INFORMATION to you I will provide
the Scriptures supporting this Biblical reality:


(1) Jesus NAMED the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew 22:2-7. He also referred to this "Kingdom" being
TAKEN away from the Jews and GIVEN to the Christian in
Matthew 21:43

Mat 22:2
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,
which made a marriage for his son,

Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing
forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


(2) Jesus NAMED the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew chapter 13 (in 8 verses) and MANY other places,
I will just provide one example of this "Kingdom".

Mat 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


(3) Jesus NAMED the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew 25:1-13, representing the LAST temporal "Kingdom".

Mat 25:1-2
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] kingdom of heaven be likened
unto ten virgins, which took their lamps [Gospels], and
went forth [following the Antichrist] to meet the bridegroom
[Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved "wheat"], and five
were foolish [unsaved "tares"].


(4) Jesus NAMED the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew chapters 5 and 7 and 8 and 19 and MANY other places.
I will just provide one example and note that (a) this is the ONLY
"Kingdom" which is not temporal and (b) this is the ONLY "Kingdom"
which consists of ONLY saved "wheat" and no unsaved "tares".

Mat 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in
the kingdom of heaven.


Before continuing I must note the ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven"
Jesus did not specifically NAME in Scripture is the (1st) Pre-Flood
"Kingdom" which contained all the Saints from Adam to Noah.


Finally, before talking about the "watches of the night" I want
to ensure that we are on the same page. Do you understand
that the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" is also
shown in Scripture as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast and as
Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom?


Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

I take it you do not have any passage in the sacred text that teaches this?

Of course I do... but it is MANY PASSAGES that support these
teachings (I provided several teachings to you but you did not
indicate WHICH teaching you wanted clarified)

Given that: I would suggest starting at the beginning.
Do you understand that Jesus specifically NAMED four
temporal "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth before He
Returns to establish the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"?

Assuming this may be NEW INFORMATION to you I will provide
the Scriptures supporting this Biblical reality:


(1) Jesus NAMED the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew 22:2-7. He also referred to this "Kingdom" being
TAKEN away from the Jews and GIVEN to the Christian in
Matthew 21:43

Mat 22:2
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,
which made a marriage for his son,

Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing
forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


(2) Jesus NAMED the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew chapter 13 (in 8 verses) and MANY other places,
I will just provide one example of this "Kingdom".

Mat 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


(3) Jesus NAMED the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew 25:1-13, representing the LAST temporal "Kingdom".

Mat 25:1-2
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] kingdom of heaven be likened
unto ten virgins, which took their lamps [Gospels], and
went forth [following the Antichrist] to meet the bridegroom
[Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved "wheat"], and five
were foolish [unsaved "tares"].


(4) Jesus NAMED the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Matthew chapters 5 and 7 and 8 and 19 and MANY other places.
I will just provide one example and note that (a) this is the ONLY
"Kingdom" which is not temporal and (b) this is the ONLY "Kingdom"
which consists of ONLY saved "wheat" and no unsaved "tares".

Mat 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in
the kingdom of heaven.


Before continuing I must note the ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven"
Jesus did not specifically NAME in Scripture is the (1st) Pre-Flood
"Kingdom" which contained all the Saints from Adam to Noah.


Finally, before talking about the "watches of the night" I want
to ensure that we are on the same page. Do you understand
that the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" is also
shown in Scripture as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast and as
Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom?


Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

I take it you do not have any passage in the sacred text that teaches this?

I apologize to you... I sent you TWO COPIES of the same post.
I thought I was responding to "Marilyn C" in the second post.
That was my error.

Jim
.

 

[Marilyn C]

Matthew 24:22 does NOT show how many days the Tribulation
is shortened.

No it doesn`t however we know that God has written ALL of scripture so we look up ALL the scriptures on that topic.

 

[Marilyn C]

I take it you do not have any passage in the sacred text that teaches this?

All scripture is given for teaching, etc..... Thus we look up ALL the scriptures on a topic. To just ask for ONE scripture is very ignorant of God`s word.

 

[sovereigngrace]

All scripture is given for teaching, etc..... Thus we look up ALL the scriptures on a topic. To just ask for ONE scripture is very ignorant of God`s word.

How about giving us any "rapture" passage that teaches a 7 year tribulation following?

 

[Marilyn C]

How about giving us any "rapture" passage that teaches a 7 year tribulation following?

Again you are negating all of the scriptures regarding the topic.

 

[5thKingdom]

No it doesn`t however we know that God has written ALL of scripture so we look up ALL the scriptures on that topic.

View attachment 281241

Of course the PROBLEM with your calculations is that 2300 days
represent the FIRST "watch of the night"... the Great Tribulation
equals 3.5 "times" or 3.5 "days" or 3.5 "years" (42 months) or
3.5 "watches of the night".

In fact the Lord Jesus (a) said the Great Tribulation would be
a "night" and He even NAMED each of the four "watches of the night".
Apparently you know that God has written ALL Scripture but you did
not "look up" all the RELATED SCRIPTURES to understand what the
duration of the Great Tribulation was...

Not even close.
I do not mean that in a nasty way.
Just as a matter of fact.

If you want to know the (real) duration of the Great Tribulation
you will have to understand the First Beast/1st Woe/Fifth Trumpet
lasted the first 2300 days and the Second Beast/2nd Woe/Sixth
Trumpet lasted the other 2.5 "watches"... you already know the
FOURTH "watch of the night" was "shortened" for the sake of
the elect.

BTW... you can read the new thread titled "Four Kingdoms of Heaven"
to see WHAT Daniel's Abomination represents since your diagram
indicates you have no idea what it is - or how long it lasted.

Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

Again you are negating all of the scriptures regarding the topic.

SovereignGrace asked you for a Scripture regarding the rapture
and you REFUSED to provide it?

Since you claim to understand Biblical teaching... what does the
Bible say about providing Scripture to support your teachings?
Have you found that COMMAND yet? Or do you reject it?

BTW... I would also like to see what Scripture(s) you have
to teach a rapture. Will you deny ME also? Is it a secret
passage that can only be shown to a select group?
What is the problem with quoting Scripture?

Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

No it doesn`t however we know that God has written ALL of scripture so we look up ALL the scriptures on that topic.

View attachment 281241

Do you NOT realize the 1260 days of "testimony" of the
Two Witnesses (candlesticks/olive trees) represent the Church Age?
are the SAME 1260 days of Rev 12:6 where the "woman" also
represents the church?

Holes all through your theories...
Obviously you looked up SOME Scripture but you did not
harmonize ALL RELATED Scripture.

Like the 42 months = 3.5 YEARS which is related to the
3.5 "times" and the 3.5 "days" and the 3.5 "watches".

You have a LOT of work to do before you have harmonized
ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES... a lot more work.

Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

No it doesn`t however we know that God has written ALL of scripture so we look up ALL the scriptures on that topic.

View attachment 281241

As I already explained to you, the duration of the Great Tribulation is shown as
3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos) and 3.5 "watches of the night"
here are some verses you OMITTED from your "timeline"... they have to be included
before you can pretend to have anything more than some partial-truth.


(12) The "Woman" which was hidden from the face of the "serpent"
for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

(13) The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the Anti-Christ
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]

(14) The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" [into the Anti-Christ's hand]
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

(15) The "Witnesses" which are first "overcome" and are later "killed" by Satan
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

(16) The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11]

(17) The "Ruler of the Last Saints" as the Anti-Christ "makes war" for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13]


BTW the 1260 days of Rev 12:6 represents the duration of the "church age" as the
"woman" (representing the church) is protected.

And the 1260 days of the "testimony" of the Two Witnesses also represents the church age
since they are called the "candlesticks" and "olive trees" (which represents the church)

No offense intended... but you have just STARTED to assemble ALL RELATED SCRIPTURE
and you have already made some mistakes about the 42 monthes = 3.5 years of the GT
and the 1260 days (noted above) occur BEFORE the GT.

Note: the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way" (2Thess 2) BEFORE the GT could start
and all the Saints must be "sealed" (Rev 7:3) before the "testimony" of the saints is "finished"
and before the GT can start.

Nice start... but you have a LOOOOONG way to go before you find Biblical Truth


Jim
.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Again you are negating all of the scriptures regarding the topic.

Do you have a 3rd coming passage that teaches a 7 years preceding it?

 

[Marilyn C]

SovereignGrace asked you for a Scripture regarding the rapture
and you REFUSED to provide it?

Since you claim to understand Biblical teaching... what does the
Bible say about providing Scripture to support your teachings?
Have you found that COMMAND yet? Or do you reject it?

BTW... I would also like to see what Scripture(s) you have
to teach a rapture. Will you deny ME also? Is it a secret
passage that can only be shown to a select group?
What is the problem with quoting Scripture?

Jim
.

Hi Jim,

It`s just that SG asked for ONE scripture for the rapture and the 7 year trib. There is no such scripture, however when we put the topic together we then can understand.

I can give you the scriptures but I see from your other posts that you think quite differently from what I believe.

 

[Marilyn C]

Do you have a 3rd coming passage that teaches a 7 years preceding it?

Still just wanting one scripture when actually God`s word says that no scripture should be taken on its own. (2 Peter 1: 20)

All of the scriptures on a topic are needed for understanding.

 

[5thKingdom]

I can give you the scriptures but I see from your other posts that you think quite differently from what I believe.

(1) Yes, please provide the Scriptures.
I am anxious to see what you have assembled.
I hope you are as open to Biblical correction as I am.

(2) As to us thinking "quite differently" what does that imply to you?
(as I noticed you did not YET refute anything I said when I refuted you)
Again, being open to Biblical correction is the "fruit" of any Saint.

(3) Did you get a chance to review the "Fourth Kingdom of Heaven" post
and review the TWENTY Scriptures related to Daniel's "Abomination"?

Jim
.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Still just wanting one scripture when actually God`s word says that no scripture should be taken on its own. (2 Peter 1: 20)

All of the scriptures on a topic are needed for understanding.

The fact is: no Scripture teaches it. It is a man-made invention. It can only be found in the Pretrib manuels.

 

[Marilyn C]

The fact is: no Scripture teaches it. It is a man-made invention. It can only be found in the Pretrib manuels.

It is a most blessed truth based upon Christ the Head of the Body, who gave Himself for it. At present He is on the Father`s throne, but soon He will move to His own throne and connect with His Body and take them there. From that throne in the third heaven, angelic realm we, the believers will judge the world system and fallen angels. (Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 1 & 2)

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is a most blessed truth based upon Christ the Head of the Body, who gave Himself for it. At present He is on the Father`s throne, but soon He will move to His own throne and connect with His Body and take them there. From that throne in the third heaven, angelic realm we, the believers will judge the world system and fallen angels. (Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 1 & 2)

None of that proves Pretrib. Until you do that we can only view it as extra-biblical man-made invention.

 

[Marilyn C]

None of that proves Pretrib. Until you do that we can only view it as extra-biblical man-made invention.

So when do you think that the Lord will move from the Father`s throne to His own throne? (Rev. 3: 21)