Pretrib Discussion

[sovereigngrace]

So when do you think that the Lord will move from the Father`s throne to His own throne? (Rev. 3: 21)

This is simply talking about authority. He is reigning now.

 

[Marilyn C]

This is simply talking about authority. He is reigning now.

That`s correct that `throne` relates to authority. So where do you see that the Lord is operating in His kingship now?

 

[sovereigngrace]

That`s correct that `throne` relates to authority. So where do you see that the Lord is operating in His kingship now?

In heaven. He is reigning as both God and man. He is reigning now as God over all creation upon His Father's throne. He is reigning now intimately over His new creation upon the throne of David.

 

[5thKingdom]

None of that proves Pretrib. Until you do that we can only view it as extra-biblical man-made invention.

Of course no one can give you pre-trib Scriptures because
they do not exist. Why do they not exist? Because the
Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast and/or Daniel's
Fourth Beast is about the Last Saints being "overcome"
by the Antichrist.


The Last Saints are part of the "ten virgins" of Matt 25:1-13
that "went forth" following the Antichrist and they are part of
the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7:24-25 (below) that are ruled
by the "Little Horn" (Antichrist) and they are part of the ten
"kings/horns" of Revelation 17 (below) who all "agree to
give their Kingdom to the Beast".


The PURPOSE of Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Fourth Beast
is to bring Judgment on the Last "wheat" (wise virgins) during the
1st Woe/Fifth Trumpet and then bring Judgment on the last "tares"
(foolish virgins) during the 2nd Woe/Sixth Trumpet. Revelation
shows TWO BEASTS for this reason.


Generally speaking, people who believe in a "rapture" are only
not understanding verses talking about the "Final Harvest"...
where one is taken (wise virgins) and one is left (foolish virgins)


So NOBODY will EVER be able to give you SCRIPTURE showing
a rapture (much less a pre-trib rapture) because those verses
do not exist in the Bible.

But you already knew that... right?

Jim


Dan 7:24-25
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another [Little horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten horns/kings], and he shall subdue three kings.
[representing the wise virgins] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [the ten "kings/horns"] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
[representing the duration of the Great Tribulation/Rev Beast]


Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet [during the Great Commission]; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

In heaven. He is reigning as both God and man. He is reigning now as God over all creation upon His Father's throne. He is reigning now intimately over His new creation upon the throne of David.

You do understand (I hope) there is a time when the Great Commission is finished... when the "testimony" of the Two Witnesses (church) is "finished"... when all the Saints have been "sealed". And THAT is when the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast begins. That is the time when
Jesus said "no man can work"... and the beginning of the four "watches of the night". The Lord even NAMED each of the four "watches" and the Lord Returns about half-way through the FOURTH "watch" which is why we have references about the DURATION of the Revelation Beast being shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 "years" (42 mo) and 3.5 "watches of the night".


Joh 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work.


Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Luk 23:29
For, behold, the days are coming [during the Great Trib/Rev Beast], in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
[because all the Saints have been "sealed"]


Jim

 

[Marilyn C]

In heaven. He is reigning as both God and man. He is reigning now as God over all creation upon His Father's throne. He is reigning now intimately over His new creation upon the throne of David.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Son) "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110:1)

So we see that the Lord (Son) is waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

Has that happened yet?

 

[sovereigngrace]

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Son) "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110:1)

So we see that the Lord (Son) is waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

Has that happened yet?

It is happening, until the last enemy is subjugated at the return of Christ.

 

[Marilyn C]

It is happening, until the last enemy is subjugated at the return of Christ.

Yes I believe also that the Father is bringing the nations (enemies) to the Lord`s footstool, to Him to be judged. And we see that is confirmed in revelation.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come. Because you have taken your great power and reigned. The nations were angry and your wrath has come.` (Rev. 11: 17)

So we see that the Lord will operate in His kingship at the tribulation.

 

[5thKingdom]

Yes I believe also that the Father is bringing the nations (enemies) to the Lord`s footstool, to Him to be judged. And we see that is confirmed in revelation.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come. Because you have taken your great power and reigned. The nations were angry and your wrath has come.` (Rev. 11: 17)

So we see that the Lord will operate in His kingship at the tribulation.

Marilyn... how do you account for the time difference between
the Revelation Beast being "cast alive into the Lake of Fire"
[Rev 19:20] and Satan and the "Kingdoms of Man" (world
governments) JOINING THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire?
[Rev 20:10]


Does Jesus reign after Rev 19:20 or after Rev 20:10?
Or have you never considered this question before?


Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Hint:
It has something to do with Rev 11:14


Rev 11:14
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe
cometh quickly.


Jm

 

[5thKingdom]

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come. Because you have taken your great power and reigned. The nations were angry and your wrath has come.` (Rev. 11: 17)

Marilyn, have you ever noticed the language of the verse
you quoted says Jesus "art to come"... what do you suppose
that means?


Rev 11:17-18
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Hint:
AGAIN the answer this has something to do with Rev 11:14

Rev 11:14
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe
cometh quickly.


Jim

 

[owly]

This is simply talking about authority. He is reigning now.

Reading a little in a book at the moment discussing this: Solomon's throne. David's throne. Moses's seat etc.

Slight side subject, but also that this individual would be a priest during his reign also.

Quite a few angles out there to attack (pro) the Christ on David's throne in his full-authority now thought.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes I believe also that the Father is bringing the nations (enemies) to the Lord`s footstool, to Him to be judged. And we see that is confirmed in revelation.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come. Because you have taken your great power and reigned. The nations were angry and your wrath has come.` (Rev. 11: 17)

So we see that the Lord will operate in His kingship at the tribulation.

Hmm. We have been in the tribulation since the time of Christ.

 

[5thKingdom]

Hmm. We have been in the tribulation since the time of Christ.

Are you saying the CONTEXT of Revelation 11:17 began in
"the time of Christ"? When the context is clearly AFTER the
2nd Woe (Sixth Trumpet) as past and the Seventh Trumpet
has sounded - beginning the ETERNAL 3rd Woe.


Rev 11:14
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


Rev 11:15-17
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

So we see that the Lord will operate in His kingship at the tribulation.

Marilyn, this may seem like a small point to you,
but I assure you it is not. The verse you quoted [Rev 11:17]
has a specific CONTEXT and that is AFTER the end of the
Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation ends BEFORE the
end of the 2nd Woe (Sixth Trumpet). Then there is a brief
"Season and Time" on earth shown in both Daniel 7:11-12
AND Revelation 11:14, before the Seventh Trumpet
sounds and the ETERNAL 3rd Woe begins.

The verse you quoted [Rev 11:17] is AFTER the Seventh Trumpet
sounds [Rev 11:15], it does not happen DURING the Great Tribulation,
but shortly after.

The reason I say this is not a small point is the chronology of the end
includes the last 3 Trumpets [Rev 8:14] and, as noted above, the END
of the Great Tribulation is shortly BEFORE the Seventh Trumpet sounds.
In fact there are at least 6-7 passages that show the "Final Harvest"
occurs just before the destruction of the Revelation Beast - which
is also shown as the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 25:1-13]

Jim

 

[Marilyn C]

Hmm. We have been in the tribulation since the time of Christ.

What about the `tribulation ` that Jesus described -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Then - `Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29 & 30)

Obviously none of that has happen yet.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What about the `tribulation ` that Jesus described -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Then - `Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29 & 30)

Obviously none of that has happen yet.

Verse 21 was AD70.

The rest refers to the tribulation that is ongoing up until the second coming.

 

[5thKingdom]

Verse 21 was AD70.

The rest refers to the tribulation that is ongoing up until the second coming.

You could not be more wrong if you tried.
There are at least 5 other verses talking about the
"time unlike any other" and ALL are talking about the
"Days of Vengeance" at the END of the Great Tribulation
(aka Revelation Beast and Daniel's Fourth Kingdom)

Why do you write one sentence (with no Scripture) and
pretend that you have refuted something? You know that
is meaningless.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

What about the `tribulation ` that Jesus described -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Then - `Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29 & 30)

Obviously none of that has happen yet.

The phrase "immediately after the tribulation of those days"
refers to immediately after the tribulation of the 1st Woe or
Fifth Trumpet... not the END of the Great Tribulation. The
Tribulation is broken int TWO WOES and TWO TRUMPETS and
TWO BEASTS and TWO "heads"... (seventh and eighth)

The FIRST WOE is judgment on the "House of God" meaning
the "wise virgins" or the last "wheat" of the Fourth Kingdom.
The SECOND WOE is judgment on the "foolish virgins" or the
last "tares" of the Fourth Kingdom.

The Days "immediately after" are the days after the 1st Woe,
while the "foolish virgins" are judged and the "Days of Vengeance"
occur.

Of course I can proved Scripture on all this but the POINT is
that you FIRST need to understand the GT is broken into
TWO BEASTS (for a reason) and, therefore, it is your mistake
to treat the GT as only ONE BEAST... it can only lead you in to
confusion and error to not accept the TWO PARTS of the GT.

Jim

 

[Marilyn C]

Verse 21 was AD70.

The rest refers to the tribulation that is ongoing up until the second coming.

So you think that there will not be anything as bad as AD70? (Matt. 24: 21)

 

[5thKingdom]

So you think that there will not be anything as bad as AD70? (Matt. 24: 21)

Marilyn, obviously sovereigngrace thinks these EVENTS
were all fulfilled in 70AD. But nobody saw them happen.


Rev 16:17-21
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Mat 24:20-22
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



Mar 13:19-20
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.



Dan 12:1-4
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


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