What if you’re wrong about hell?

Lazarus Short

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Hello Laz! We haven't talked for a while.

The reason it won't happen is because of what Jesus said.

John 6:40
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The Father's will is for everyone who LOOKS AND BELIEVES IN HIM shall have everlasting life.

You have got to believe in Him to make it!!!

Good verse, and I agree with "You have got to believe in Him to make it!!!"

But there is more to the story...

Look at the end of the Revelation, chapter 22, verse 17, where all are told, "Come." Yes, come through the gates that never close to "take the water of life freely."

Looking further ahead, at First Corinthians 15:28, we see the result: God has become All in all.
 
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Charlie24

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Speaking of junk, where did you get the idea that the sheep and goats have any bearing on "helping Israel" or not? Where is the mention of Armageddon or the Antichrist? It is not in the relevant verses, so Charlie, where did you get that mess from?

I got it from Matt. 25:31-32, where the judgement of the nations begins.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

You see, this judgement begins when Christ sits on His throne. when does this happen?

After He returns He will sit on His throne having saved Israel from the antichrist, Rev. 19:19-20.
 
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mmksparbud

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You and the polus have chosen Him.

Congratulations on a wise chose! I and the polus who have NOT chosen Him are in that wonderful group known as the malista, or the first-fruits, or the elect who started their journey into Him NOT as a result of their wise choices, but His awesome call!

"You DID NOT choose Me..."


He knocked. I answered His knock. I opened the door. That is what He has asked.
 
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Charlie24

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Good verse, and I agree with "You have got to believe in Him to make it!!!"

But there is more to the story...

Look at the end of the Revelation, chapter 22, verse 17, where all are told, "Come." Yes, come through the gates that never close to "take the water of life freely."

Looking further ahead, at First Corinthians 15:28, we see the result: God has become All in all.

Laz you must be using that UR version of scripture. There is no "come through the gates that never close" in the KJV.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

This verse is for "the thirsty for the water of life." Not the ones who are going to hell.

I've already explained the "all and all." Remember I said, "that was a good question?"

I'll go back and get the post # if you need it.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen" said:
Dr. Marvin Vincent
olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9:
‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.
There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.
It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.
It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.
It does not mean something endless or everlasting.
To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”
In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.
The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.
They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17..
Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.
Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.
God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.
There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.
That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.
The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.
Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”
Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.
Vincent's unsupported opinion
The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.
In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.
If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.
In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.
It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.
If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?
Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)
Virtually every objection Vincent makes can be explained by one word "hyperbole" of which there are many examples in the Bible. "Hyperbole" derives from the Greek word ὑπερβολή,/uperbolé literally "throw beyond". "Uperbolé occurs 5 times in the NT, all by Paul, 2 Corinthians 3:10, 2 Corinthians 9:13, Ephesians 1:19, Ephesians 2:7 and Ephesians 3:19.
Here is an example of hyperbole with the word "world."

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
There are 10 verses in the NT where kosmos/world is used hyperbolically but I don't see anyone arguing that Kosmos never means the entire planet. I wonder why the only word heterodox groups argue about is the word "aionios?"
Matthew 16:26, John 5:19. Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25, Romans 1:8, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9, Luke 2:1, Acts of the apostles 19:27, Acts of the Apostles 13:3



 
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mmksparbud

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Laz you must be using that UR version of scripture. There is no "come through the gates that never close" in the KJV.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

This verse is for "the thirsty for the water of life." Not the ones who are going to hell.

I've already explained the "all and all." Remember I said, "that was a good question?"

I'll go back and get the post # if you need it.

They not only have their own versions of scriptures---they have their own version of Greek definitions! You have to research their so called truth for the truth!
 
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mmksparbud

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Laz you must be using that UR version of scripture. There is no "come through the gates that never close" in the KJV.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

This verse is for "the thirsty for the water of life." Not the ones who are going to hell.

I've already explained the "all and all." Remember I said, "that was a good question?"

I'll go back and get the post # if you need it.


They also apparently can not think for themselves and endlessly quote other Universalists, as though that is some sort of proof! That's like one Nazi quoting another Nazi for verification!!
 
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Lazarus Short

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They also apparently can not think for themselves and endlessly quote other Universalists, as though that is some sort of proof! That's like one Nazi quoting another Nazi for verification!!

I can speak for myself, and state that I spent two years of study in the KJV for the purpose of determining for myself which was true:

damnationism

annihilationism

or

universalism.

I found support for all, but to me the latter was the clear winner. I don't often quote other Universalists, but sometimes I will quote from the book that my notes became. BTW, your Nazi insult is a rather low blow, or can you imagine one Nazi telling another, "We're going to save the Jews, the Gypsies, and the Russkies! How about that?!" "Ja, good idea!"
 
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mmksparbud

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I can speak for myself, and state that I spent two years of study in the KJV for the purpose of determining for myself which was true:

damnationism

annihilationism

or

universalism.

I found support for all, but to me the latter was the clear winner. I don't often quote other Universalists, but sometimes I will quote from the book that my notes became. BTW, your Nazi insult is a rather low blow, or can you imagine one Nazi telling another, "We're going to save the Jews, the Gypsies, and the Russkies! How about that?!" "Ja, good idea!"


Insult? Replace the word Nazi with Communists, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist---It is not an insult. The point is quoting someone that believes in your same believes as verification of those believes. You've twisted things.
 
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FineLinen

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YesMe

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I can speak for myself, and state that I spent two years of study in the KJV for the purpose of determining for myself which was true:

damnationism

annihilationism

or

universalism.

I found support for all, but to me the latter was the clear winner. I don't often quote other Universalists, but sometimes I will quote from the book that my notes became. BTW, your Nazi insult is a rather low blow, or can you imagine one Nazi telling another, "We're going to save the Jews, the Gypsies, and the Russkies! How about that?!" "Ja, good idea!"

You are right, universalism is the one true answer that I too have found, everybody gets there in the end... This is my humble opinion from a man who has studied the bible ( most of the christians have never really studied the bible and they keep on talking that they know the answer ) and the other religious beliefs.

Everybody gets there in the end! The Bible has many layers of understanding, the first layer, it's the literal interpretation, 99% of the christians stop here, some out of fear and some out of ignorance, they are too confortable with their present status and do not want to lose their ticket to Heaven. Ask questions, seek answers, you will be completely amazed how what you considered to be the truth is only a part of the truth and that the truth is so much bigger and greater!
 
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fwGod

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Thanks for your reply post. Two things.
1) Hell for unbelievers is common knowledge. It's more likely that an inquirer will want to know if you believe in a God that would do such a terrible thing.
2) You also have the option to tell them that you don't believe in a forever burning hell. Of course, that assumes that you don't. Would you consider the possibility? The OP article was written by someone (Brad Jersak) that doesn't believe in a forever burning hell. Neither do I.
I believe that there is a forever burning hell, even as I believe in a eternal heaven, however the White Throne Judgement decides the wicked into outer darkness, so "forever" for the wicked is a length according to the moment that they arrived in hell until all stand before God at TWTJ.

Hell is originally meant for satan and his demons. Those people who sided/or do side with him are therefore sent to hell to share in the torments of hell intended for satan.

Conclusion: Hell burns forever, but Bible verse(s) suggest that sinners may not, or do not stay in hell forever.

The fact that there are any number of Christians who hold to a different interpretation shows clearly that none of us but God Himself know for certain. At some point in time as we one day watch the final reward of the wicked, that is when we'll all know for certain.
 
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FineLinen

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I believe that there is a forever burning hell, even as I believe in a eternal heaven..

Wonderful!

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.
 
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YesMe

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People are afraid that if they question God's "word" they will be sent to hell...

I leave here something that I wrote a while ago on this forums and there was no one able to answer me:

"You use some strong words but you are not able to discuss with me about scriptures, it's so easy to accuse, right? We all do this, we accuse, we judge people, we think we are better than the others, that the truth is ours and that the others are wrong, this is how conflict arises.

So I gave you those two Matthew verses to show you something, this is my own finding, it's what I call a revelation to me, because I've been asking for the true understanding of scriptures for years.

The law: "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" comes from Exodus 21:24 "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" - but the whole "set of laws" starts with Exodus 20 " And God spake all these words, saying," The Hebrew word for God used there was Yahweh, so it was Yahweh who gave that law of which I spoke above.

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’" - Matthew 5:39 "But I TELL YOU, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also"

Now, look at these two verses of Matthew, Jesus never points the fact that it was Yahweh who gave that law, He used the expression "you have heard that it was said", it was not said, even in His time, that law was written down, but He used this expression to point that this was just said, not inspired by the divine, so who added that law?

In the next verse, He goes on saying "BUT I TELL YOU", making a clear distinction between what Yahweh said and what Jesus says, then giving the true law, on of love and forgiveness, so is Yahweh and Jesus one and the same or someone altered the image of Yahweh by adding all sorts of things that Yahweh never talked about?

This law "eye for eye and tooth for tooth", from my research, is a law that governs the creation but it's not the "true", so to say, law of God, God's true law is all about love and forgiveness, this is what Jesus preached, among many other things.

You see, if you can answer, please, you say I talk about false things...."

Just one thing that I myself have found in the Bible after my own personal research, people say that Yahweh is Jesus, then Jesus, in Matthew, contradicted Himself... because it was Yahweh who gave that law or wasn't he? Maybe someone added that law, you know, a human, now, ask yourself how many other things have been altered right from the very beginning of when these scriptures were written..
 
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Lazarus Short

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Laz you must be using that UR version of scripture. There is no "come through the gates that never close" in the KJV.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

This verse is for "the thirsty for the water of life." Not the ones who are going to hell.

I've already explained the "all and all." Remember I said, "that was a good question?"

I'll go back and get the post # if you need it.

No, I consulted a KJV. As far as I know, there is no official "UR Version" of the Bible, but I just favor those not using the pagan word "hell."

As far as gates, I found at Revelation 21:25 that they are never shut. Then, verse 27 states that the defiled, the abominable, the liar cannot pass. So, I must yield the point - "come" applies only to the saved...at that point in time. "Hell" was not mentioned, and in the end God still becomes All in all.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Insult? Replace the word Nazi with Communists, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist---It is not an insult. The point is quoting someone that believes in your same believes as verification of those believes. You've twisted things.

From where I stand, it looks like the twisting began with Constantine and the Nicene Council, and that we are un-twisting a theo-illogical mess.
 
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mmksparbud

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I can speak for myself, and state that I spent two years of study in the KJV for the purpose of determining for myself which was true:

2 years? Commendable. I've ben studying this for over 35 years. And still---I find your concept to be the same lie that was given to Eve---Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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2 years? Commendable. I've ben studying this for over 35 years. And still---I find your concept to be the same lie that was given to Eve---Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Is not that the whole identity of the false gospel(s) being presented on the forum in dozens of threads this year and past years ?
Just like what the serpent said to the woman "ye shall not surely die"....
obviously and simply a lie.
 
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Lazarus Short

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2 years? Commendable. I've ben studying this for over 35 years. And still---I find your concept to be the same lie that was given to Eve---Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

It is not the same at all - who can deny on this side of the eating of the fruit that we shall not surely die? We see it every day. What I am saying is that we all get resurrected, some get corrective punishment, but in the end Death is defeated/destroyed and God becomes All in all.
 
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mmksparbud

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From where I stand, it looks like the twisting began with Constantine and the Nicene Council, and that we are un-twisting a theo-illogical mess.

\Constantine didn't accuse me of insulting him, you did. And He did mess things up.
 
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