What if you’re wrong about hell?

[FineLinen]

Nope.
The scriptural proof came first. The release from the burden of hell followed.
The "all" in the scripture below is the same group.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Good grief Steve!

Are you unaware of the alternate version?

In Adam all die (the radical all), in Christ some (tis) shall be made alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

LOL, you do this quite often. Going into a silly rant over what you know to be off the point.

There are no what if's concerning hell, or any other truths in scripture.

I'm hoping to add some color to your black and white world.

You speak of the "truths in scripture" as if there is only ONE opinion about these things.

Did you see this post from earlier. Post #296. (pasted below) Notice the descriptive language matches the language in the NT about hell. Exaggeration for emphasis.

I also wrote in post #293 about the "eternal" destruction of Sodom, Ammon and Moab, Elam and Egypt. Can you find Egypt today? Or was the destruction really eternal?

Hopefully you can set me straight on all this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is the scripture I had in mind to share with you. But found the others instead.
We know where the biblical area of Edom is today. Is the smoke still rising forever? Are the streams still turned to pitch? (not to be quenched night or day?) Is "her dust" still "burning sulfur"?

Similar language is used to describe hell.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[Saint Steven]

I totally understand your rejection of the idea that God made an eternal torture chamber. Neither do I believe that so much so that I dwvotws two chapters in a book I wrote about the nature of Hell. I believe it is more if an event and temporal. "All former things will pass away". Death and Hades are thriwn into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. Satan and his demons, destroyed along with the first earth and heaven that's burned up in a fervent heat. (2 Per. 3:10)
It all really relies the interpretation of a word, aionios. It has variable meanings. When applied to things temporal and physical, it means ages, lifetimes, generation's, epoch. When applied to God, his domain, our spiritual life, it means eternal. If He'll is physically a part of this world and in the end times the world is destroyed, then that's it. Why would God want to sustain suffering souls, regardless if how evil, eternally? It wouldn't glorify Him. It is like giving a child a life sentence for stealing a candy bar. His judgment is just and is proportionate to the sins. We see His justice all through the Bible and it is fair and always temporal.
I know this doctrine of eternal Hell is a traditional one, but I dont agree.
Polaris is another word that means destroy. You can't destroy something over and over again. That would be an indestructible destruction. No, you burn a piece of paper and that's it.

I agree that there is biblical proof for Annihilation.
As there is for Damnationism and Restorationism. (UR)
Where can we find your book. (give it a shameless plug - lol)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I see that the UR holds the Calvinist view.

UR (as I see it) holds a high view of God's sovereignty, and thus shares ground with Calvinism, and holds a high view of individual will, and in this has a belief in common with Arminianism.

We just say God chooses to save everyone, and everyone will ultimately choose God. The first last and the last first.

Plan A is the alpha and omega plan. And what's Plan B again, Charlie?

 

[Charlie24]

Nope.
The scriptural proof came first. The release from the burden of hell followed.
The "all" in the scripture below is the same group.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Look how this works Steven.

All will die in Adam. Why? He committed the first sin and fell. We are all in this fallen state because of sin. To die in Adam is a spiritual death.

All will be made alive in Christ. How?

Eph. 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

"Even when we were dead in sins, (dead in Adam) hath quickened us together with Christ, (now look how we are quickened, made alive in Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

We are made alive when we are saved.

We were dead in Adam by sin, but made alive by Christ when were saved.

This means those who accept Christ will be made alive, not so with the unsaved.

Now you see that everyone will not be made alive in Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree that there is biblical proof for Annihilation.

Annihilation of the spiritual enemies, culminating with hell and death. Beyond that, just vain imaginings isn't it?

[Edit] Hang on...also the 'old man' gets cooked, all that selfish false pride and delusion...sin of all stripes.

So olethros happens, but it ain't the end. Next station, the terminus - restoration in Christ!

 

[Saint Steven]

1Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Look how this works Steven.

All will die in Adam. Why? He committed the first sin and fell. We are all in this fallen state because of sin. To die in Adam is a spiritual death.

All will be made alive in Christ. How?

Eph. 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

"Even when we were dead in sins, (dead in Adam) hath quickened us together with Christ, (now look how we are quickened, made alive in Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

We are made alive when we are saved.

We were dead in Adam by sin, but made alive by Christ when were saved.

This means those who accept Christ will be made alive, not so with the unsaved.

Now you see that everyone will not be made alive in Christ.

There is no "when" only "will".

How can "ALL will" if it is dependent on us? (when) It's not. Never was.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
When is that, Charlie? When will ALL be made alive?
Is that not what the "Word of God" says? All will...

 

[Saint Steven]

Annihilation of the spiritual enemies, culminating with hell and death. Beyond that, just vain imaginings isn't it?

[Edit] Hang on...also the 'old man' gets cooked, all that selfish false pride and delusion...sin of all stripes.

So olethros happens, but it ain't the end. Next station, the terminus - restoration in Christ!

I give all three views of the final judgment the stature of a biblical view. All three can bring biblical proofs. I will give them that much. (doesn't mean I agree)

 

[Saint Steven]

Good day, all. Heading to work.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good day, all. Heading to work.

Top of the morning to you sir. And may you sally forth in grace and peace.

 

[Charlie24]

UR (as I see it) holds a high view of God's sovereignty, and thus shares ground with Calvinism, and holds a high view of individual will, and in this has a belief in common with Arminianism.

We just say God chooses to save everyone, and everyone will ultimately choose God. The first last and the last first.

Plan A is the alpha and omega plan. And what's Plan B again, Charlie?

SM, you are a nice guy, one of the nicest guys I've met on this forum. And God knows I mean no disrespect to you.

Your statement, "We just say God chooses to save everyone, and everyone will ultimately choose God," is not true.

It is God's will for all men to be saved, 1Tim. 2:4, but it will not happen.

Narrow is the gate that leads to life and few there be that find it, Matt. 7:13-14.

The other statement, "The first last and the last first."

This comes from Matt. 20:16, it is in reference to the parable of the laborers.

The men complained of some working all day and some part of the day but all were paid the same. Some bore the heat of the day and were paid the same as the ones who didn't.

Jesus is referring to the Church and Israel. Israel was chosen first to work all day (per parable) but didn't, The Church was chosen second to work later in the day (per parable).

Israel is the first chosen and will be last to enter the Kingdom, the Church was last chosen and will be first to enter the Kingdom.

Jesus is using this parable to prove the Kingdom is not earned by debt (Israel), but by grace (the Church).

 

[Ronald]

Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9:

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.
It does not mean something endless or everlasting.

To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)

Excellent post. Can you then get to the most controversial scriptures,
Matthew 25:46 and exegete that since you seem to be more well informed. This is the verse were that Traditonal doctrine has been supported by.

 

[Charlie24]

Excellent post. Can you then get to the most controversial scriptures,
Matthew 25:46 and exegete that since you seem to be more well informed. This is the verse were that Traditonal doctrine has been supported by.

They have been asked this before and cannot explain.

Their definition of "eternal" is blown out of the water with this verse.

They also can't explain how the lost who go to hell will eventually get out.

No one can be saved without accepting the sacrifice of Christ.

That means the only way these lost can be saved is to have a second chance after death to repent.

There is no verse in scripture that proves a second chance to be saved after death.

They evade and move on!

 

[FineLinen]

Excellent post. Can you then get to the most controversial scriptures,
Matthew 25:46 and exegete that since you seem to be more well informed. This is the verse were that Traditonal doctrine has been supported by.

Dr. Vincent is as good as you get. His grasp of the koine is awesome.

St. Matthew 25:46 is the cornerstone text for fundamentalist dogma regarding "unending punishment" (aionios kolasis). This text is the ONLY Scripture in all Canon that speaks of the same.

The entire parable involves clean virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise) but pure virgins. Sheep & goats are both clean animals, not one clean & one unclean. And lastly investors who have not invested with a return expected by the boss.

There are 5 qualifications for aionios kolasis, clearly enunciated by our Lord according to the context.

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

 

[FineLinen]

It is God's will for all men to be saved, 1Tim. 2:4, but it will not happen.

Beware: The Supreme God of Glory willeth all mankind to be saved, but alas, His willeth is not as powerful as the willeth of the creatures He has made.

The Author & Finisher = 0

The creature lost in sin = 100%

 

[Charlie24]

Dr. Vincent is as good as you get. His grasp of the koine is awesome.

St. Matthew 25:46 is the cornerstone text for fundamentalist dogma regarding "unending punishment" (aionios kolasis). This text is the ONLY Scripture in all Canon that speaks of the same.

The entire parable involves clean virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise) but pure virgins. Sheep & goats are both clean animals, not one clean & one unclean. And lastly investors who have not invested with a return expected by the boss.

There are 5 qualifications for aionios kolasis, clearly enunciated by our Lord according to the context.

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

FL, where did you get this mess from? This is not scripture. This is some of that UR junk that makes no sense in order to evade the question.

This is concerning the judgement of the nations. The goat nations separated from the sheep nations. The goat nations are the nations that followed the antichrist, the sheep nations are those who tried to help Israel. This takes place after the battle of Armageddon.

The leaders of the goat nations will go away into everlasting punishment. The sheep nations are those who gave Christ drink when He was thirsty, etc. It is referring to these nations helping Israel against the antichrist.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It is God's will for all men to be saved, 1Tim. 2:4, but it will not happen.

Won't happen? Why not? You put too much stress on man's puny will.

 

[Lazarus Short]

FL, where did you get this mess from? This is not scripture. This is some of that UR junk that makes no sense in order to evade the question.

This is concerning the judgement of the nations. The goat nations separated from the sheep nations. The goat nations are the nations that followed the antichrist, the sheep nations are those who tried to help Israel. This takes place after the battle of Armageddon.

The leaders of the goat nations will go away into everlasting punishment. The sheep nations are those who gave Christ drink when He was thirsty, etc. It is referring to these nations helping Israel against the antichrist.

Speaking of junk, where did you get the idea that the sheep and goats have any bearing on "helping Israel" or not? Where is the mention of Armageddon or the Antichrist? It is not in the relevant verses, so Charlie, where did you get that mess from?

 

[Charlie24]

Won't happen? Why not? You put too much stress on man's puny will.

Hello Laz! We haven't talked for a while.

The reason it won't happen is because of what Jesus said.

John 6:40
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The Father's will is for everyone who LOOKS AND BELIEVES IN HIM shall have everlasting life.

You have got to believe in Him to make it!!!

 

[Der Alte]

I agree that there is biblical proof for Annihilation.
As there is for Damnationism and Restorationism. (UR)
Where can we find your book. (give it a shameless plug - lol)

As if you have not been plugging your book all along.