Are we saved by faith alone, or something more?

[JLB777]

sorry sir, I have debated you enough to know that you believe there is salvic merit in obedience. And this is salvation by works, which is off topic. Please stop trying to find subtle ways to enter this into this thread, this is your last warning.

So you believe repentance is a work?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

sorry sir, I have debated you enough to know that you believe there is salvic merit in obedience. And this is salvation by works, which is off topic. Please stop trying to find subtle ways to enter this into this thread, this is your last warning.

Please answer an honest simple question.


Do you believe faith and repentance are “works”?


JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

Please answer an honest simple question.


Do you believe faith and repentance are “works”?


JLB

You already have another thread open on this topic, you are here malignantly to pressure people who don't agree with you into your perspective and I will not allow that. We are saved by faith, it is not a work. Repentance is not a work, following the commandments are works. Obeying any principle or law is works. Again if works could save Christ would not have died.

 

[JLB777]

We are saved by faith, it is not a work.

Amen.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Repentance is not a work,

Amen.

 

[JLB777]

following the commandments are works.

So you believe Loving God and loving your neighbor is a work?


How so?


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

So you believe Loving God and loving your neighbor is a work?


How so?


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



JLB

yes sir following commands and laws are works that is how galatians words works righteousness. I am not going to talk anymore about this, I see you have posted to the other thread about this, lets keep the dialogue there. The fact that you are not honoring my request to not speak works here reveals a little about your character that I don't desire in myself or others. So take care, I hope you find what you are looking for here on CF.

 

[JLB777]

yes sir following commands and laws are works that is how galatians words works righteousness. I am not going to talk anymore about this, I see you have posted to the other thread about this, lets keep the dialogue there. The fact that you are not honoring my request to not speak works here reveals a little about your character that I don't desire in myself or others. So take care, I hope you find what you are looking for here on CF.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Some seem to believe that expressing our faith is a work.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


This would mean love is a work.


How does the Spirit lead us if not by faith, to express love.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The flesh desires to gratify it’s lustful cravings through sin, which are manifestations of hate.


We are to obey the desires and will of the Spirit, who empowers us to rule in dominion over the inclinations, and lustful deeds of the flesh, so that we are people who walk in love and righteousness, rather than hate and unrighteousness.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


I just don’t see how this is a works based salvation.


How can any born again Christian, think that walking in obedience to Jesus Christ, who dwells is us to lead us in the ways of righteousness, is a work based salvation?



JLB

 

[JLB777]

yes sir following commands and laws are works that is how galatians words works righteousness.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


You clearly misunderstand what Paul is saying.


Do you understand the difference between the obedience of faith, and the works of the law?


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


You clearly misunderstand what Paul is saying.


Do you understand the difference between the obedience of faith, and the works of the law?


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

God bless you brother, I disagree with the view that obedience and following commands are not works, I feel that 99% of christianity rejects that view. In fact only two people I have ever met believed that, and I have debated on here for over 15 years. Both of you have been asked not to post works salvation on this particular thread anymore. Works salvation is off topic as stated in the OP. And I have asked you repeatedly at least five times to not post off topic.

 

[JLB777]

God bless you brother, I disagree with the view that obedience and following commands are not works, I feel that 99% of christianity rejects that view. In fact only two people I have ever met believed that, and I have debated on here for over 15 years. Both of you have been asked not to post works salvation on this particular thread anymore. Works salvation is off topic. And I have asked you repeatedly at least five times to not post off topic.

Im not posting anything off topic.

Please stop saying that.

If we love God then we keep His commandments.

Very simple.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:10


Obedience to God, to walk in love, is not the works of the law.


Please consider the passages.



JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

We are indeed saved by grace through faith.

Who said we are saved by works?

Once a person is in Christ, in which they are saved by grace through faith, they must remain in Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how John instructs us to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

You just did.

 

[createdtoworship]

Im not posting anything off topic.

Please stop saying that.

If we love God then we keep His commandments.

Very simple.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:10


Obedience to God, to walk in love, is not the works of the law.


Please consider the passages.



JLB

Sir try reading some of these verses and say they are not works of righteousness: Obedience to laws or commands are works of righteousness. They are synonomous according to scripture.

OBEDIENCE WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS (NIV, NRSV)

(See OBEDIENCE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS)


OBEDIENT CHILDREN

1Pet 1:14 as obedient children not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance


OBEDIENT IN ALL THINGS

2Cor 2:9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things


OBEDIENT TO THE POINT OF DEATH

Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross


OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH (KJV)

(See OBEDIENT TO THE POINT OF DEATH)


OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men


OBEY MY VOICE

Gen 27:8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to what I command you

Gen 27:13 only obey my voice, and go, get them for me

Gen 27:43 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice: arise, flee to my brother Laban in Haran

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people

2Kin 10:6 If you are for me, and if you will obey my voice, take the heads of the men, your master’s sons, and come to me at Jezreel by this time tomorrow

Jer 7:23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people

Jer 11:4 which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt from the iron furnace, saying, ‘Obey My voice and do according to all that I command you

Jer 11:7 For I earnestly exhorted your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, until this day, rising early and exhorting, saying, “Obey My voice

Jer 18:10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it

Jer 22:21 This has been your manner from your youth, that you did not obey My voice


OBEY MY WORD (NRSV)

(See OBEY MY VOICE)


OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD

Deut 11:27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you today

Deut 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today to go after other gods which you have not known

Judg 3:4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the Lord, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses


OBEY THE TRUTH (KJV)

(See OBEYING THE TRUTH)


OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD

Deut 15:5 only if you carefully obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe with care all these commandments which I command you today

Deut 27:10 Therefore you shall obey the voice of the Lord your God, and observe His commandments and His statutes which I command you today

Deut 28:1 Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth

Deut 28:2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God

Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you

Deut 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you

Deut 28:62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God

Deut 30:8 And you will again obey the voice of the Lord and do all His commandments which I command you today

Deut 30:10 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul

Josh 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people who were men of war, who came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they did not obey the voice of the Lord to whom the Lord swore that He would not show them the land which the Lord had sworn to their fathers that He would give us

1Sam 12:15 However, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers

1Sam 15:19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord

1Sam 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day

2Kin 18:12 because they did not obey the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed His covenant and all that Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded

Jer 7:28 So you shall say to them, ‘This is a nation that does not obey the voice of the Lordtheir God nor receive correction

Jer 26:13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lordyour God

Jer 38:20 Please, obey the voice of the Lord which I speak to you

Jer 42:6 Whether it is pleasing or displeasing, we will obey the voice of the Lord our God to whom Jer 43:4 So Johanan the son of Kareah, all the captains of the forces, and all the people would not obey the voice of the Lord, to remain in the land of Judah

Jer 43:7 So they went to the land of Egypt, for they did not obey the voice of the Lord

Zech 6:15 And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God


OBEY THE WHOLE LAW (NIV)

(See KEEP THE WHOLE LAW)


OBEY YOUR PARENTS

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right

Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord


OBEYED MY VOICE

Gen 22:18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws

Josh 22:2 You have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you

Judg 2:2 But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this

Jude 6:10 do not fear the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But you have not obeyed My voice

Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the Lord your God, and have scattered your charms to alien deities under every green tree, and you have not obeyed My voice

Jer 9:13 And the Lord said, “Because they have forsaken My law which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice, nor walked according to it


OBEYING THE TRUTH

Gal 5:7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth

1Pet 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart


compare the above terms of how we obey God and his commands, and see how they mesh with us being called to do works, see obedience and works are meshed together in scripture and are the same, you see many of the same principles duplicated in the below passages regarding works, where above they are called obedience:

GOOD WORKS

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father

Acts 9:36 This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

1Tim 2:10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works

1Tim 5:10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work

1Tim 5:25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden

1Tim 6:18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share

Tit 2:7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works

Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works

Tit 3:14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works

1Pet 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation

 

[JLB777]

Sir try reading some of these verses and say they are not works of righteousness: Obedience to laws or commands are works of righteousness. They are synonomous according to scripture.

It’s called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



please stop making up false things about me and what I’m saying.




JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

It’s called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



please stop making up false things about me and what I’m saying.




JLB

so your saying that all these works, are not also obedience?

GOOD WORKS

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father

Acts 9:36 This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

1Tim 2:10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works

1Tim 5:10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work

1Tim 5:25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden

1Tim 6:18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share

Tit 2:7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works

Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works

Tit 3:14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works

1Pet 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation

 

[JLB777]

so your saying that all these works, are not also obedience?

GOOD WORKS

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father

Acts 9:36 This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

1Tim 2:10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works

1Tim 5:10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work

1Tim 5:25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden

1Tim 6:18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share

Tit 2:7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works

Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works

Tit 3:14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works

1Pet 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation

I’m saying what I actually said, not the false things you keep trying to say I said.


Those who obey the Lord Jesus Christ will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[JLB777]

You just did.

You just did.

Please copy and paste where I said in any of my posts, that we are saved by works.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Repent means turn to God.

The Greek word doesn't mean that.

From bible hub.com regarding the word 'repent' in Acts 2:38.

Strong's Concordance 3340
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from meta and noeó
Definition
to change one's mind or purpose

The Greek word is made up of 2 words; meta, meaning "to change", and noeo, meaning "the mind".

 

[Danthemailman]

Please copy and paste where I said in any of my posts, that we are saved by works.

JLB

Works-salvationists usually don't come straight out and blatantly say, "we are saved by works," although they teach it and don't even seem to understand they are teaching it.

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:10

Obedience to God, to walk in love, is not the works of the law.

Please consider the passages.

JLB

The implication is salvation is maintained based on the merits of keeping His commandments. Saved by "these" works (obedience to God, walk in love) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect "obedience to God, walk in love" from the law. (Matthew 22:37-40)

Those who obey the Lord Jesus Christ will receive eternal salvation. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

JLB

The implication is that salvation is by obedience/works.

Bill the principle of faith, found in Romans 10:10, is our obedient response to the Gospel command to repent.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience, or it remains dormant, inactive, or as James says, dead as a body without the Spirit is dead, being lifeless.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The “work” that James refers to in this context, is the action of obedience.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.

The “work” by which Abraham was justified, was he responded to God in obedience, to offer his son Issac on the altar.

Not the works of the law.
Not good works
Not work that earns a wage

But the obedience of faith.

This is what faith, (that we receive from God, when He speaks to us directly or indirectly through one He sends to preach the Gospel), requires in order to be complete and activated to function and produce the intended divine result.

Paul calls this principle or law, the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

To be continued...

JLB

Typical argument made by those who teach salvation by faith and works. You also mix faith and obedience/works together. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

 

[JLB777]

The Greek word doesn't mean that.

From bible hub.com regarding the word 'repent' in Acts 2:38.

Strong's Concordance 3340
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from meta and noeó
Definition
to change one's mind or purpose

The Greek word is made up of 2 words; meta, meaning "to change", and noeo, meaning "the mind".

Sorry, referring to commentary to try and redefine a biblical word and it’s meaning is not being straightforward.


“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:19-20




Repent means turn to God.




JLB