Are we saved by faith alone, or something more?

[createdtoworship]

Turning to idols implies an action or work. For dogs can turn around and around and around and around and around by chasing their own tail. This definitely looks like the animal could get tired from working in this way.

In other words, you disqualify yourself within your own thread because you should not tell people to turn from idols and to God (Which implies an action or work of some kind). Work is all about effort or taking effort on some level. Just believing is another story. Again, I ask you to define what "turning from idols and to God" looks like. Do you work at a job? Do you know what work entails? Physical action, right? If turning from idols and to God is a physical action, then it is technically a work. But maybe you think it is all mental or a belief alone? If so, please explain.

How do you define repentance?
How do you define obeying the gospel?
How do you define "turning from idols"?

last warning before closing the thread. If you reply to this post with a works based message I will ask to have the thread closed, like the last one you started talking about works on. Up to you. The last thread you guys showed up on, you scared off all the posters, and I don't like that. So I will close this thread without blinking. now to adress your issue. You have meritorious works and non meritorious works. Repentance is a non meritorious work. Turning to God from idols is a non meritorious work. Obeying the commandments to be saved is meritorious. I hope you see the difference. So again this is sidetracking the thread, and it will be closed if this persues. Besides salvation by works is unorthodox for this thread. Again we are saved by repenting from idols, but it is a gift of God, some verses actually say God 'grants us repentance.' He allows it. But that is different than saying you can gain and lose salvation daily from sinning and repenting. That is so far from the truth that I don't know where to start.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

last warning before closing the thread. If you reply to this post with a works based message I will ask to have the thread closed, like the last one you started talking about works on. Up to you.

Well, I created a thread that is similar to this one, so we can freely discuss the truth of the Bible there.
Truth cannot be stopped. His Word will not return void (Isaiah 55:11).

The last thread you guys showed up on, you scared off all the posters, and I don't like that.

Not surprised. Narrow is the way and few be there that finds it (Matthew 7:14).
Most want the easy and wide gate path.
Most do not believe God's grace as taught in Titus 2:11-12.
Most do not believe Titus 1:16.

So I will close this thread without blinking.

I am commanded to only fear the Lord and not by what men can do to me (See: Matthew 10:28).
But I will reply to the next part of what you wrote in my own thread (Where truth will not suppressed or hidden).

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on what the Bible says about salvation).
Oh, and FYI (For Your Information), I do not believe in "Works Salvationism" (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism). I believe we are saved initially and ultimately by God's grace, and then we continue in His plan of salvation by entering into the Sanctification Process (Which is living holy, being fruitful (works), and putting away sin, etc. by God's power working in us). This does not nullify God's grace but it only seeks to compliment it (See again Titus 2:11-12). So when you say I believe in "Works Salvation" (Which implies we are saved by "Works ALONE"), this would be false slander against what I actually believe. I believe we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Both these things are the works of God saving the believer. Granted, we have to surrender or cooperate with the Lord, but it is ultimately the Lord doing the good work through us. No believer should ever boast in their own work or effort alone (Ephesians 2:9). There is no such thing; For it is God that works in believers (Philippians 2:13, also see John 15:5).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

last warning before closing the thread. If you reply to this post with a works based message I will ask to have the thread closed, like the last one you started talking about works on. Up to you. The last thread you guys showed up on, you scared off all the posters, and I don't like that. So I will close this thread without blinking. now to adress your issue. You have meritorious works and non meritorious works. Repentance is a non meritorious work. Turning to God from idols is a non meritorious work. Obeying the commandments to be saved is meritorious. I hope you see the difference. So again this is sidetracking the thread, and it will be closed if this persues. Besides salvation by works is unorthodox for this thread. Again we are saved by repenting from idols, but it is a gift of God, some verses actually say God 'grants us repentance.' He allows it. But that is different than saying you can gain and lose salvation daily from sinning and repenting. That is so far from the truth that I don't know where to start.

I believe you are not accepting the Bible's teaching on works (after we are saved by God's grace); I replied on this topic in a post of mine within this thread here (If you or anyone else is interested in seeking out the truth).

 

[JLB777]

yes I understand obeying the gospel as repenting of sin to Christ, however there is nothing meritorious in repenting. One can repent till they are blue in the face and be a moral person, but still headed to hell. So obeying the gospel is repenting of idols and having faith in the True God. So again, there is no salvific merit in obedience.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." Romans 11:6

Repent means turn to God.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our Lord.


This is the commission that Jesus Christ, gave to Paul.

Words of Christ in red —


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20


The way we repent, turn to God, is confess Jesus as Lord.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Repenting is the action of obedience that faith requires.




JLB

 

[frumanchu]

The gospel is an indicative, not an imperative. I can no more obey the gospel than I can "be the gospel" as so many put it today. We are saved by grace through faith. There are only two positions one can have with respect to their relationship with God: they can trust in themselves and their own works to be justified before Him, or they can trust in the finished work of Christ to be justified before Him. The latter necessarily involves acknowledging/recognizing our sinfulness and its implications with a holy God, and to trust in Christ is necessarily to turn from our sinful condition. That repentance is a necessary characteristic of saving faith in terms of one's disposition towards God...but it is not an act that merits any righteousness. When we stand at judgement we will not be clothed with Christ's righteousness AND have a little "I repented today!" sticker on the robe. He will see only the righteousness of Christ and on that basis alone welcome us into His presence.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, I created a thread that is similar to this one, so we can freely discuss the truth of the Bible there.
Truth cannot be stopped. His Word will not return void (Isaiah 55:11).



Not surprised. Narrow is the way and few be there that finds it (Matthew 7:14).
Most want the easy and wide gate path.
Most do not believe God's grace as taught in Titus 2:11-12.
Most do not believe Titus 1:16.



I am commanded to only fear the Lord and not by what men can do to me (See: Matthew 10:28).
But I will reply to the next part of what you wrote in my own thread (Where truth will not suppressed or hidden).

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on what the Bible says about salvation).
Oh, and FYI (For Your Information), I do not believe in "Works Salvationism" (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism). I believe we are saved initially and ultimately by God's grace, and then we continue in His plan of salvation by entering into the Sanctification Process (Which is living holy, being fruitful (works), and putting away sin, etc. by God's power working in us). This does not nullify God's grace but it only seeks to compliment it (See again Titus 2:11-12). So when you say I believe in "Works Salvation" (Which implies we are saved by "Works ALONE"), this would be false slander against what I actually believe. I believe we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Both these things are the works of God saving the believer. Granted, we have to surrender or cooperate with the Lord, but it is ultimately the Lord doing the good work through us. No believer should ever boast in their own work or effort alone (Ephesians 2:9). There is no such thing; For it is God that works in believers (Philippians 2:13, also see John 15:5).

I believe you are not accepting the Bible's teaching on works (after we are saved by God's grace); I replied on this topic in a post of mine within this thread here (If you or anyone else is interested in seeking out the truth).

I don't feel the need to debate works salvationism. I had my fill of it debating christian cults for several years. (not saying you are a cult), I am just saying....one thing I learned was that grace is not works. Romans 11:6. So have fun on your thread. I will stay here.

 

[createdtoworship]

Repent means turn to God.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our Lord.


This is the commission that Jesus Christ, gave to Paul.

Words of Christ in red —


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20


The way we repent, turn to God, is confess Jesus as Lord.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Repenting is the action of obedience that faith requires.




JLB

yes sir, the thing is that there is no eternal merit within our repentance. Repentance does not get us saved, and repentance does not keep us saved. We are justified by faith, and sanctified by faith.

"‘to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." Acts 26:18 NKJV

yes I believe that we must make Him Lord of our life. But it's not that repentance that either initiates or keeps salvation, as you see in acts 26:18 we are sanctified by faith.

 

[createdtoworship]

That repentance is a necessary characteristic of saving faith in terms of one's disposition towards God...but it is not an act that merits any righteousness.

amen brother, I whole heartedly agree.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't feel the need to debate works salvationism. I had my fill of it debating christian cults for several years. (not saying you are a cult), I am just saying....one thing I learned was that grace is not works. Romans 11:6. So have fun on your thread. I will stay here.

Okay. One more time. Please stop it with the false slander. I don't believe we are saved by Works Salvation (Which is implies we are saved by "Works ALONE Salvationism."). I believe we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Sanctification follows after being saved by God's grace. One cannot put the cart before the horse.

I believe your view is not biblical in regards to Soteriology. Jesus said narrow is the way. Most today believe as you do. So I am not surprised you accept the popular view of Christianity. No need to change one's life all that much. Just believe. But even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Romans 11:6 is in reference to the Justification Process (Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection for salvation) and how we are not saved by "Law ALONE Salvationism" by the 613 Laws of Moses within the Jewish religion. Paul is not referring to the next process of salvation (Sanctification) that comes after being saved by God's grace. Paul is focused on the salvation of the Jewish people who needed God's grace in Romans 9-11.

In Romans, and Galatians we can see Paul was clearly condemning those who thought they needed to first be circumcised in order to be saved (See Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2). This was the same heresy that was warned about at the Jerusalem council (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Of course, many (like yourself) will ignore this kind of context that Paul was fighting against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (Works ALONE Salvationism) and they will make Paul to say that he was referring to all kinds of works (Including the works that the Lord wants us to do as a part of the faith). But just read John 15:1-5, Titus 1:16, Matthew 25:21, Matthew 25:30, etc.).

Side Note:

Oh, and yes; I am aware that there are cults out there who believe works play a part in one's salvation. There are cults who believe in God's grace alone, too (like Anti-Trinity cults, and Free Grace churches that are into Ecumenism, or new age meditations, extreme Charismatic churches, prosperity churches, etc.). Truth is determined by God's Word (the Bible). I believe your view of Soteriology has to ignore or twist whole swafs of Scripture in order to make it work. I could write for days as to why such a view is not only unbiblical, but immoral, but alas, you do not want to discuss such truth in God's Word. This is no surprise for me. But truth will prevail in another thread.

 

[createdtoworship]

Okay. One more time. Please stop it with the false slander. I don't believe we are saved by Works Salvation (Which is implies we are saved by "Works ALONE Salvationism."). I believe we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Sanctification follows after being saved by God's grace. One cannot put the cart before the horse.

I believe your view is not biblical in regards to Soteriology. Jesus said narrow is the way. Most today believe as you do. So I am not surprised you accept the popular view of Christianity. No need to change one's life all that much. Just believe. But even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Romans 11:6 is in reference to the Justification Process (Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection for salvation) and how we are not saved by "Law ALONE Salvationism" by the 613 Laws of Moses within the Jewish religion. Paul is not referring to the next process of salvation (Sanctification) that comes after being saved by God's grace. Paul is focused on the salvation of the Jewish people who needed God's grace in Romans 9-11.

In Romans, and Galatians we can see Paul was clearly condemning those who thought they needed to first be circumcised in order to be saved (See Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2). This was the same heresy that was warned about at the Jerusalem council (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Of course, many (like yourself) will ignore this kind of context that Paul was fighting against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (Works ALONE Salvationism) and they will make Paul to say that he was referring to all kinds of works (Including the works that the Lord wants us to do as a part of the faith). But just read John 15:1-5, Titus 1:16, Matthew 25:21, Matthew 25:30, etc.).

Side Note:

Oh, and yes; I am aware that there are cults out there who believe works play a part in one's salvation. There are cults who believe in God's grace alone, too (like Anti-Trinity cults, and Free Grace churches that are into Ecumenism, or new age meditations, extreme Charismatic churches, prosperity churches, etc.). Truth is determined by God's Word (the Bible). I believe your view of Soteriology has to ignore or twist whole swafs of Scripture in order to make it work. I could write for days as to why such a view is not only unbiblical, but immoral, but alas, you do not want to discuss such truth in God's Word. This is no surprise for me. But truth will prevail in another thread.

sir works salvation is not what you think it is. You think orthodox view of works salvation is 'works only' that is not what I said. If you talk to a jehovah's witness or mormon, they know about grace too, and faith. They don't think they are saved by works either. But the key diffrentiation between works salvation and salvation by grace, is IF WORKS HAS SALVIFIC MERIT OR NOT. And you believe it does, so you are works salvation according to this forum and to orthodoxy. So I won't reply to your post here. Keep the works salvation to your thread please. Any more posts on works will be reported.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sir works salvation is not what you think it is. You think orthodox view of works salvation is 'works only' that is not what I said. If you talk to a jehovah's witness or mormon, they know about grace too, and faith. They don't think they are saved by works either. But the key diffrentiation between works salvation and salvation by grace, is IF WORKS HAS SALVIFIC MERIT OR NOT. And you believe it does, so you are works salvation according to this forum and to orthodoxy. So I won't reply to your post here. Keep the works salvation to your thread please. Any more posts on works will be reported.

Others can see my reply to this post in this thread here.

 

[createdtoworship]

Others can see my reply to this post in this thread here.

thank you for keeping your doctine in your own thread. I did actually mention in the OP that salvation by works is off topic. And I draw the line on believing that works has 'salvific merit.' I explained ad nausium that while the christian life is a call to obedience, there is no saving aspect in that obedience. That is what the Bible calls 'saved by law." And galatians refutes that. If salvation could come from obeying 'laws' of any kind, then Jesus would not have died. That does not mean we can do what ever we want as christians, we still have to follow our God given conscience. And if we do sin, we repent of it. If that sin becomes habitual then we start a progression in hebrews it starts with drifting I believe, then doubting, then departing. And this leads to apostacy in general. Now to me a habitual sin is not addictive sin, but rather a sin we are proud of. See if we are ashamed of our sin, normally there will be periodic repentance of even addictive sins. So what I am talking about is say for example a homosexual who believe God is perfectly fine with his sin. He can believe in Christ all he wants, but he lacks the solidifying aspect of the gospel in his heart, he lacks repentance. So the gospel seed is not watered and nurtured by repentance and he cannot grow, his salvation dies for lack of nutrients. Did he germinate a little bit, maybe. Maybe he was saved at a youth camp and was on fire for five years before his dad started molesting him, and ultimately this broken relationship, and poor role model allowed him to have mental problem, and homosexuality ensued. At this point he is still saved, but it's when he starts realizing.....this is hard to repent of, and I actually like it, and God is ok with it. That is when that sin can actually cause doubt and then that doubt can cause someone to lose faith in christ's finished work. The sin didn't cause salvation to be lost, any more than repenting of sin saves us. Again if obedience to a law could save, Christ would not have needed to die, he would just say.....'obey the law.' So in short "can a homosexual be saved?" I answer this question with this reply....It depends on if homosexuality is just an addictive sin he is ashamed of, or if he is proud of his sin. Those are two different things. So I hope this addresses some of the misconceptions. I will answer any questions regarding this and provide scripture. I dont' mind talking about apostacy short term, but I dont' want to derail the thread over pages of apostacy topics. Thanks Bible Highlighter for honoring my request to keep your version of works salvation out of this thread. In which you believe there is merit in our obedience, and that possibly our merit can help lose, and regain salvation unlimited times. I am not exactly sure if that is what you believe, but I would seem plausible at least in my own mind that that would be the case, and you can see why that is too controversial for a thread that believes in orthodox soteriology.

 

[JLB777]

yes sir, the thing is that there is no eternal merit within our repentance

There is eternal salvation because we repent; because we obey the Gospel.


There is eternal damnation if we don’t.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

There is eternal salvation because we repent; because we obey the Gospel.


There is eternal damnation if we don’t.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

are you saying we are saved by our works? If so, then this is not the thread you should be posting in. Here is a thread created by someone with a similar works based soteriology, works salvation is off topic according to the OP:
Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

thank you for keeping your doctine in your own thread. I did actually mention in the OP that salvation by works is off topic. And I draw the line on believing that works has 'salvific merit.' I explained ad nausium that while the christian life is a call to obedience, there is no saving aspect in that obedience. That is what the Bible calls 'saved by law." And galatians refutes that. If salvation could come from obeying 'laws' of any kind, then Jesus would not have died. That does not mean we can do what ever we want as christians, we still have to follow our God given conscience. And if we do sin, we repent of it. If that sin becomes habitual then we start a progression in hebrews it starts with drifting I believe, then doubting, then departing. And this leads to apostacy in general. Now to me a habitual sin is not addictive sin, but rather a sin we are proud of. See if we are ashamed of our sin, normally there will be periodic repentance of even addictive sins. So what I am talking about is say for example a homosexual who believe God is perfectly fine with his sin. He can believe in Christ all he wants, but he lacks the solidifying aspect of the gospel in his heart, he lacks repentance. So the gospel seed is not watered and nurtured by repentance and he cannot grow, his salvation dies for lack of nutrients. Did he germinate a little bit, maybe. Maybe he was saved at a youth camp and was on fire for five years before his dad started molesting him, and ultimately this broken relationship, and poor role model allowed him to have mental problem, and homosexuality ensued. At this point he is still saved, but it's when he starts realizing.....this is hard to repent of, and I actually like it, and God is ok with it. That is when that sin can actually cause doubt and then that doubt can cause someone to lose faith in christ's finished work. The sin didn't cause salvation to be lost, any more than repenting of sin saves us. Again if obedience to a law could save, Christ would not have needed to die, he would just say.....'obey the law.' So in short "can a homosexual be saved?" I answer this question with this reply....It depends on if homosexuality is just an addictive sin he is ashamed of, or if he is proud of his sin. Those are two different things. So I hope this addresses some of the misconceptions. I will answer any questions regarding this and provide scripture. I dont' mind talking about apostacy short term, but I dont' want to derail the thread over pages of apostacy topics. Thanks Bible Highlighter for honoring my request to keep your version of works salvation out of this thread. In which you believe there is merit in our obedience, and that possibly our merit can help lose, and regain salvation unlimited times. I am not exactly sure if that is what you believe, but I would seem plausible at least in my own mind that that would be the case, and you can see why that is too controversial for a thread that believes in orthodox soteriology.

Others can see my reply to first half of this post in this thread here.

 

[Danthemailman]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Amen! Plain and simple. Yet others will still argue for salvation by grace through faith "plus works" but to no avail. (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[createdtoworship]

Amen! Plain and simple. Yet others will still argue for salvation by grace through faith "plus works" but to no avail. (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

it is the same mentality that satan had. It is a mentality that I can earn salvation. That Christ's salvation was not enough. I would feel so very arrogant if anything I could possibly do in my flesh would merit salvation. Satan's first sin was pride. And salvation by works is ultimately the same sin satan had.

 

[JLB777]

are you saying we are saved by our works? If so, then this is not the thread you should be posting in. Here is a thread created by someone with a similar works based soteriology, works salvation is off topic according to the OP:
Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

Are you saying faith is a work?



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Amen! Plain and simple. Yet others will still argue for salvation by grace through faith "plus works" but to no avail. (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are indeed saved by grace through faith.

Who said we are saved by works?


Once a person is in Christ, in which they are saved by grace through faith, they must remain in Christ.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how John instructs us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

Are you saying faith is a work?



JLB

sorry sir, I have debated you enough to know that you believe there is salvic merit in obedience. And this is salvation by works, which is off topic. Please stop trying to find subtle ways to enter this into this thread, this is your last warning.