IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

[CharismaticLady]

For a different purpose. Besides, if Jesus said He would be with them always, then He may have cast the deciding vote.

It would be written.

 

[timothyu]

It would be written.

Those within the Apostles were left with the authourity to take care of such matters. No one complains about the decisions made by Paul's elders. I sense discrimination.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Those within the Apostles were left with the authourity to take care of such matters. No one complains about the decisions made by Paul's elders. I sense discrimination.

Not until they received the baptism of the Spirit. The Day of Pentecost hadn't fully come. As for Paul - what happens after the receiving of the Spirit is different.

 

[timothyu]

Not until they received the baptism of the Spirit.

The HS was being sent to keep them on the path of the Kingdom, not as the new boss. A ploy by those who wish to set Paul above the original gang in order to position themselves over the Jewish church.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The HS was being sent to keep them on the path of the Kingdom, not as the new boss. A ploy by those who wish to set Paul above the original gang in order to position themselves over the Jewish church.

They had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. They were showing carnal presumption to chose for Jesus

 

[CharismaticLady]

The HS was being sent to keep them on the path of the Kingdom, not as the new boss. A ploy by those who wish to set Paul above the original gang in order to position themselves over the Jewish church.

No, as the SAME boss. They were told to wait until His Spirit would return. What they did, they did without the Spirit's leading.

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Francis Drake]

You should be very scared in your self will or your free will.

There you go again with your utterly foolish self contradictory logic.
You spend the whole of this thread insisting that man has no freewill, but repeatedly accuse me and @BNR32FAN of exercising freewill.

Forget your scriptural arguments for the moment, just explain how that contradiction works inside your head.

 

[Blade]

You asked if the will of humans controlled by God. If it was we would be here. Seems God really goofed up with Adam Eve then For God that knows ALL.. seem to have to ask "where are you" "who told you" "did you eat of the tree I told you not to".. God didnt' know? God even had to ask Satan where you coming from. SO much more to this then what what see

 

[timothyu]

What they did, they did without the Spirit's leading.

So declaring an upgrade from disciple to apostle needed upper management? How does that replacement affect the Gospel of the Kingdom?

 

[CharismaticLady]

How does that replacement affect the Gospel of the Kingdom?

What are you talking about now? All I said is that I had a problem with them going ahead and replacing Judas themselves. These are offices given by Jesus only.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers

I didn't declare myself to be a teacher. I was driving from Arizona to California for a conference when God spoke to me and said "I am giving you the office of teacher."

Among other gifts I also have the gift of prophecy, but I am NOT a prophet. Why? Because it is Jesus that tells us and appoints offices.

Interestingly, we don't hear anything about what Mathias did, but we have 13 or 14 books by Paul. Barnabas was an apostle, and we are not told how he received that office, but it is believed by some that he wrote Hebrews and the Epistle of Barnabas. And I bet he wasn't appointed in some pagan way.

 

[timothyu]

These are offices given by Jesus only

He was out of town and had already appointed someone else in the group to be in charge in the interim.

 

[CharismaticLady]

He was out of town and had already appointed someone else in the group to be in charge in the interim.

Who was out of town? And who got appointed for what?

 

[Kermos]

Again your quoting the verse out of context my friend.

“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:27-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

WHAT SHALL WE DO so that WE
may work the works of God is the question being asked. So the context is that the work THEY must do is believe.

Lord Jesus replied with the explanation that God does it all.

The work is God's.

The belief/faith is placed by God.

The question had a man centric premise of how man could work the works of God (John 6:28), but Jesus' answer eliminated any work of man which includes choice (John 6:29, John 15:16, John 15:19).

Jesus emaployed a conversational construct accomplishing more that one purpose when He said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

You try to rob the Word of God of the richness of Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

it’s obviously a preference.

“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭NASB

You wrote "it's obviously a preference", but "preference" is neither there explicitly nor implicitly.

The Word of God expresses "action" which is fruit and fruit for we believers is fruit of the Spirit (John 3:19-21).

The Word of God explained that we believers are born of the Spirit (John 3:3-8) just prior to the passage (John 3:19-21).

This chronology identifies that the Spirit of Truth must do God's work in the believer (John 6:29) in order for we believers to practice the Truth.

On the other hand, people in their self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) practice something called free will (Philemon 1:14 - here refers to free will as illusory - the only reference to "free will" in the NT) which is love for darkness which is a state of being.

"Preference" is neither there explicitly nor implicitly.

 

[Kermos]

Scripture is not silent, but very loud on the subject of freewill. But loudness is of no use to someone whose false doctrine makes him stone deaf.

Your hilarious self righteousness is leaking out there Kermos. We are all gonna die, just for not agreeing with you. Gulp.

But just to make it easy for you, here's an example of God demanding men make a freewill choice.-
Josh24v15And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Choose, choose, choose, choose, did you read that Kermos, they were given a choice?

Yes I made a typo, but how dare you accuse me of having self will Kermos, you insist I don't have freewill and now you accuse me of using it!
Make your mind up man.

You argue from your imagination. The scripture does not state that man has a free will to choose toward God. The Word of God is clear that God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread).

Joshua 24:14-15 properly exegeted shows that the "choose, choose, choose" is not a choice twoard God (post in this thread).

While "self will" is akin to "free will", they are not precisely the same thing. In the "REGARDING GENESIS" section, I wrote "self will" not "free will". Since you try to twist scripture which carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19), I am not surprised that you try to twist that which I wrote.

The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will", but in an illusory fashion in Philemon 1:14, and that is the only mention of "free will" in the New Testament.

The Apostle Peter wrote of "self will", but in a concrete fashion in 2 Peter 2:9-10, and that is the only mention of "self will" in the New Testament.

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation"
AND "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment"
SO the Lord God's control over salvation is amplified in Peter's writing.

Peter also wrote important points about the unrighteous
DARING: the unrighteous do things like claim they choose Jesus contrary to the Lord's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)
SELF-WILLED: the unrighteous are self-willed
NOT trembling when they revile angelic majesties
BY claiming choice toward Jesus
SO the self-willed persons contradict the Lord's words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

In the unrighteous person's daring self-will, they are condemned
THEREFORE, "self will" is a cause unto damnation in the New Testament.

 

[Kermos]

you keep skipping this question and I’ve asked it several times.

Now this is very crucial here to take into consideration. If like you say no one can believe unless God enables that person then how can those people be judged according to whether or not they believe if they are incapable of believing unless God has chosen them? How are these people who are not chosen by God justly punishable if they are INCAPABLE of believing? If they are incapable of believing then God’s expectation of them is IMPOSSIBLE for them to accomplish and His judgement upon them would be UNJUST.

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

God's intervention is that God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread)

 

[Kermos]

There were many disciples, but only 12 who were given the office of apostle at the beginning.

Of your previously stated premise of limiting the words of Jesus to the apostles only, you persist in denial of you being one of Jesus' sheep, and a person with the Holy Spirit does not deny being one of Jesus' sheep.

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Where in anything that I have said did you get the idea that I deny that God created everything?

It appears you are rattled. There is much warning in scripture that causes people to be rattled - such as "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away" (John 15:2).

That post was in response to someone else.

By the way, I am not a Calvinist so all your references to Calvin are discarded.

I am a Christian for I follow Christ. Christ is the Word of God (John 1:14), and the Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

Just the opposite. Everything which means we and everything created, are God as God is all. That does not makes us separate from but extensions of God Himself with which He can experience Himself. Those who see themselves as outside of God are denying Him the privilege of working and seeing through them. They are non-functioning in the way originally intended when self awareness was not an issue. A repair plan is offered and a new system has been formed. But free will is still in play and those looking to upgrade must do so by choice or they will rust and become obsolete.

You argue from your imagination. The scripture does not state that man has a free will to choose toward God. The Word of God is clear that God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread).

"Self will" is akin to "free will", but they are not precisely the same thing.

The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will", but in an illusory fashion in Philemon 1:14, and that is the only mention of "free will" in the New Testament.

The Apostle Peter wrote of "self will", but in a concrete fashion in 2 Peter 2:9-10, and that is the only mention of "self will" in the New Testament.

The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" metaphorically in "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

The KJV renders "in effect" as "as it were"
AND "as it were" is adverbial with the meaning "as if it were really so"
SO "as it were" is the same as "in effect".

Two literary constructs are "in effect" and "in fact" each with differing definition, here are the hallmarks of each phrase:
"in effect" expresses differing causes in which a similar effect/outcome occurs (cause and effect); in other words, one thing is different from another thing, yet the resultant effect is similar.
"in fact" expresses accuracy of fact; in other words, two things that are the same arrive at the same resultant effect.

An example of each:
EXAMPLE "IN EFFECT" SENTENCE: In effect, the systems are identical.
EXAMPLE "IN FACT" SENTENCE: In fact, the systems are identical.

An explanation of the examples:
EXPLANATION OF "IN EFFECT" SENTENCE: Two systems using different means to arrive at similarly identical output despite using alternative avenue/means/cause to arrive at the output.
EXPLANATION OF "IN FACT" SENTENCE: Arriving at the same output using two exactly same systems or two systems the same in function with few details changed.

Paul wrote of the outcome "your goodness".

Paul also wrote of two systems/causes which are (1) "compulsion" and (2) "your own free will".

Paul's writing indicates that "in effect" is applied to the two systems/causes, and this results in "your own free will" as the illusory system/cause.
THEREFORE, "free will" as a concrete system/cause does not occur in the New Testament.

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation"
AND "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment"
SO the Lord God's control over salvation is amplified in Peter's writing.

Peter also wrote important points about the unrighteous
DARING: the unrighteous do things like claim they choose Jesus contrary to the Lord's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)
SELF-WILLED: the unrighteous are self-willed
NOT trembling when they revile angelic majesties
BY claiming choice toward Jesus
SO the self-willed persons contradict the Lord's words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

In the unrighteous person's daring self-will, they are condemned
THEREFORE, "self will" is a cause unto damnation in the New Testament.

 

[Kermos]

Nothing about this verse or the context that this verse was spoken even remotely suggests that a person cannot choose Christ. And you accuse us of “adding to scripture”? It’s no secret that Jesus hand picked these 11 men but nothing in the entire chapter suggests that a person is incapable of choosing to accept Christ. That’s an assumption that is not supported in the text my friend.

@Francis Drake @CharismaticLady BNR32FAN you and others like you claim to practice free-will choice towards God, and among you there are resounds a common refrain against the words of Jesus who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) both quotations of which refer to the exclusive role of God in the salvation of men.

The common refrain among you is that Jesus' audience is restricted to only the apostles.

The Word of God clearly indicates that these words of Jesus apply to all believers in all time based on five independent avenues,

As a preface, you say that you can do something that Jesus told the apostles they could not do. You try to make yourself out to be more powerful than the apostles in your unscriptural salvation claim of choosing Jesus yourself.

On to the five avenues.

Both Matthias as well as Joseph were present when Lord Jesus declares that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Near the conclusion of the Gospel of John, the Apostle John's own writing, He wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31) which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Just prior to the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, He commanded us to go and teach and proclaim which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

BACKGROUD AND EVENTS AROUND THE SUPPER

EXHIBIT 1:

Luke discloses that there were more than twelve disciples at the time that Jesus named as apostles.

"And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:" (Luke 6:13)

EXHIBIT 2:

This passage establishes Jesus' "disciples" present from the beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17, this says "disciples" not "apostles":

"Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded." (John 13:5)

EXHIBIT 3:

There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage.

EXHIBIT 4:

Jesus says "but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31).

After that, Jesus with the disciples may have been in the room where they had supper during the words of Jesus recorded in chapters 15 to 17 OR preparing to leave the room OR departing the room OR outside the room OR some combination of these - the Apostle John did not record that specifically. The way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. John's manner presented Jesus' discourse as one contiguous discourse; in other words, the way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. EXHIBIT 5 bears the appearance that they remained in the room.

EXHIBIT 5:

At the supper's conclusion, the next indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples is when Jesus and His disciples went forth over the ravine of the Kidron.

"When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples." (John 18:1)

EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS

The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.

After EXHIBIT 3 (Judas departed) and before EXHIBIT 5 (supper concludes) the promises of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) and Jesus declaring God exclusively chooses men not men choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) occurs.

Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16-17 (as well as every one of the listed references to the promise of the Holy Spirit) and He said "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.

The word "you" that Jesus uses throughout the supper is powerfully important!

DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM WITH JESUS

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. These names of disciples are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in EXHIBIT 1 and EXHIBIT 5.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:

"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" (Acts 1:12-15)

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." (Acts 2:1-4)

One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius.

Continued to post #363