Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

[sovereigngrace]

The elements have not melted with fervent heat yet - one major thing about a separation of Full and Partial Preterism, and I still kind of resent all Peterists being lumped together - C.F. recognizes a difference - always has.

I did not call you a heretic. I do not apply that to Partial Preterists. I said a denial of a literal physical future second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead is heresy.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That's the pot calling the kettle black, So, Which part did I specifically avoid in post 217, SG?

You ignored the text and questions i submitted.

 

[Tra Phull]

OK, sg.

I do not deny a literal future physical second coming of Christ.

My definition of heresy involves the deity, nature(s), and pre-existence of Christ, and does not involve eschatology, but whatever.

 

[sovereigngrace]

OK, sg.

I do not deny a literal future physical second coming of Christ.

My definition of heresy involves the deity, nature(s), and pre-existence of Christ, and does not involve eschatology, but whatever.

Hymenaenism is heresy, according to Scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Scripture teaches that Jesus would come immediately after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem. This is why Partial preterists believe that the coming of Jesus in 70AD was a coming in judgment. It is at this time, he would gather is elect.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




Stating that the resurrection had occurred prior to the coming of Christ. and that there would be no future resurrection. Preterism does not believe this.



Incorrect. I do not believe the resurrection and ascension of believers to heaven occurs PRIOR to the 2nd coming. Additionally, I believe in a future resurrection and ascension to heaven of believers. I do not believe there is no future resurrection as is believed to be taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Are there any theological beliefs that teach, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, that believers ascend to heaven PRIOR to the 2nd coming of Christ? Kind of sounds like futurism to me......

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Scripture teaches that Jesus would come immediately after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem. This is why Partial preterists believe that the coming of Jesus in 70AD was a coming in judgment. It is at this time, he would gather is elect.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




Stating that the resurrection had occurred prior to the coming of Christ. and that there would be no future resurrection. Preterism does not believe this.



Incorrect. I do not believe the resurrection and ascension of believers to heaven occurs PRIOR to the 2nd coming. Additionally, I believe in a future resurrection and ascension to heaven of believers. I do not believe there is no future resurrection as is believed to be taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Are there any theological beliefs that teach, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, that believers ascend to heaven PRIOR to the 2nd coming of Christ? Kind of sounds like futurism to me......

You claimed:
Scripture teaches that Jesus would come immediately after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem.

This is not what Scripture teaches. You are reading into what is said there using your own preconceived ideas of the tribulation and the Last Day. What and when is the Tribulation? That is for Scripture to teach us; we are not to run ahead advancing what only amounts to only one's own theories.

Likewise onw must not read a Revelation literally...they were never delivered in that form.

 

[Tra Phull]

Regarding Hymenaenism, it is referred to as blasphemy and something that eats like a cancer.

Remember this was perhaps written prior to 70 AD, and was in 1 and 2 Titus.

The term HERESY was not used, granted, it's portrayed as a bad thing, there are many wrong and erroneous doctrines which fall short of HERESY, one of them being the opinion of some scholars that Paul did not write the Pastoral Epistles. It's wrong, IMO, but not HERESY.

 

[Tra Phull]

The subject of PAROUSIA DELAY was addressed by Peter PRIOR TO 70 AD - again, some scholars say that Peter is not the author of 1st, 2nd Peter - or both - which I also reject.

In any case, I think PAROUSIA DELAY has been addressed from before 70 AD up til now - we are still addressing it here in this thread - one issue is the nature of the Parousia/coming/presence which occurred in 70 AD, it is hard to imagine the Olivet Discourse NOT addressing this - "one stone will not be left on another" regarding the Temple.

That HAPPENNED in 70 AD, and it cannot be denied that it happenned.

Not all Partial Preterists agree on everything, either, nor necessarily should they.

Some prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD, some is yet to come.

Any attempts to define Partial Preterism outside the above sentence are subject to error.

 

[Tra Phull]

Peter wrote that our brother Paul wrote some things which are hard to be understood, which unlearned wrest to their own destruction, as they do "the other scriptures".

This does not mean Peter considered Paul's writings Scripture with a capital P - the Greek word simply means WRITINGS.

 

[Tra Phull]

Scripture with a capital S, I mean. I have no EDIT feature now, it comes and goes on this Kindle like a reed shaken by the wind.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The subject of PAROUSIA DELAY was addressed by Peter PRIOR TO 70 AD - again, some scholars say that Peter is not the author of 1st, 2nd Peter - or both - which I also reject.

In any case, I think PAROUSIA DELAY has been addressed from before 70 AD up til now - we are still addressing it here in this thread - one issue is the nature of the Parousia/coming/presence which occurred in 70 AD, it is hard to imagine the Olivet Discourse NOT addressing this - "one stone will not be left on another" regarding the Temple.

That HAPPENNED in 70 AD, and it cannot be denied that it happenned.

Not all Partial Preterists agree on everything, either, nor necessarily should they.

Some prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD, some is yet to come.

Any attempts to define Partial Preterism outside the above sentence are subject to error.

The destruction of the temple is not connected with the Judgment Day though.

 

[Tra Phull]

I never said the destruction of the Temple was "connected with the Judgement Day"

For certain, the Temple Destruction was prophesied in Olivet Discourse.

 

[Tra Phull]

But does anyone deny that Jesus had some sort of presence/coming/Parousia in 70 AD Temple destruction?

Did that all happen without His involvement - was it just coincidence - even though Jesus prophesied about it?

I do not think He gathered all the elect at that time, but I think a judgement was poured out

 

[throughfiierytrial]

But does anyone deny that Jesus had some sort of presence/coming/Parousia in 70 AD Temple destruction?

Did that all happen without His involvement - was it just coincidence - even though Jesus prophesied about it?

I do not think He gathered all the elect at that time, but I think a judgement was poured out

If that's your view then an awful lot of events might be seen to fall into the category of Judgment rather than judgment. I don't believe them to be in the same category. The Judgment Day will strike as lightening and be seen in the East as in the West...swiftly and with finality.

 

[Tra Phull]

KRISIS is Koine Greek for judgement. No lowercase for first few centuries, all UNCIALS - Greek uppercase characters.

It is your prerogative to make categories of Judgement and judgement as you wish.

As far as a final THE JUDGEMENT DAY - is it after the Millennium - which some Christians do not take literally?

I think I see things as you do - wham - and its all over - but serious Christians differ in these matters.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

KRISIS is Koine Greek for judgement. No lowercase for first few centuries, all UNCIALS - Greek uppercase characters.

It is your prerogative to make categories of Judgement and judgement as you wish.

As far as a final THE JUDGEMENT DAY - is it after the Millennium - which some Christians do not take literally?

I think I see things as you do - wham - and its all over - but serious Christians differ in these matters.

I'm aware of the Uncials, but the capital J and lowercase j are my usage in order to differentiate the two types of judgments spoken of. I'm also aware that serious Christians differ, however serious though they may be they may be seriously wrong and need correction according to the Scriptures.
I do not take the millennium literally...

 

[Tra Phull]

I don't either

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I don't either

Great! Nice "meeting" you! Happy to be of accord on that doctrine...not many of us here!

 

[Tra Phull]

We few - we happy few - we band of brothers (and sisters !

Henry the 4th ? 5th ?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

...(William Shakespeare's Henry V)

signing off for the night