"Okay, I believe in a higher power(s) now...."

[InterestedAtheist]

"objective is NOT to FORCE us" is not "cannot think of a way".

Turn up in your living room and have a conversation with you? Yes, but believing based on that would leave you with "faith", not "evidence". It would not be force, no.

Eh? Of course it would be evidence of God manifested for us.

 

[Silmarien]

Oh please... I refuse to let you? As if I could? I can't help but to wonder...?

Yes, you can refuse to let someone make an argument. All it takes is stalling at the first step and then insisting over and over again that it isn't relevant. That's disruptive enough for a straightforward argument, much less a more theological if not postmodern one.

I first have to ask you... Do you think YHWH is the God of claimed Gods? Yes or no?

I don't even know what that means, especially since the Tetragrammaton is predominantly used in Judaism, not Christianity. Are you asking me if I think Judaism is true? That depends on what you mean by "true," since I'm fairly liberal with the Old Testament. I obviously don't accept the strict monotheism of Islam or modern Judaism, so you could even argue that I don't believe in YHWH.

If you feel you have 'smoking gun' evidence, I doubt my prior rebuttal/perceived misunderstaning/other would stop you

You're clearly not reading anything I write if you think that I feel that I have "smoking gun" evidence. I said on the very first page that I didn't think that it worked that way.

 

[A_Thinker]

Your omniscient god can't think of a way to win us without force? Really?

It could show up in my living room and have a conversation with me. I predict you are already thinking that that would be force. But, it's not. Thomas got his holes in Jesus' side. Where's my chance? Saul/Paul got his Damascus road experience. Where's mine? I haven't crossed a sea on dry land. I haven't seen Jesus walk on water. I haven't had my dad raised from the dead. The Israelites got fire from heaven (Elijah). If this is force, then God is not opposed to it. If it's not, I want my Damascus road experience.

In the meantime, your god ain't trying to win anyone.

God has won 1/3 of living humanity ... plus a similar proportion of those who have gone before ...

 

[Tinker Grey]

God has won 1/3 of living humanity ... plus a similar proportion of those who have gone before ...

Pretty pathetic for an omnipotent god.

 

[A_Thinker]

Pretty pathetic for an omnipotent god.

Atheists can say that .... with their great track record ???

 

[InterestedAtheist]

God has won 1/3 of living humanity ... plus a similar proportion of those who have gone before

Pretty pathetic for an omnipotent god.

Agreed. And let's not forget, the thirty-three percent God has managed to get aren't much to boast of - fractured into thousands of squabbling and sometimes murderous factions, warring and torturing and generally behaving in a very un-Christ-like manner.

 

[A_Thinker]

Agreed. And let's not forget, the thirty-three percent God has managed to get aren't much to boast of - fractured into thousands of squabbling and sometimes murderous factions, warring and torturing and generally behaving in a very un-Christ-like manner.

People squabble ... and there are always bad actors in the drama. Just oversee any child's playground to confirm that. At the least, the stated aim of christianity is to teach and encourage us to LOVE one another.

Which, unfortunately, never seems to have been on the agenda whenever atheists have come into power ...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

People squabble ... and there are always bad actors in the drama. Just oversee any child's playground to confirm that. At the least, the stated aim of christianity is to teach and encourage us to LOVE one another.

Which, unfortunately, never seems to have been on the agenda whenever atheists have come into power ...

"The stated aim" must have been such a comfort to the victims of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and the innumerable souls harried, burned, beheaded, hung, evicted or persecuted for various forms of heresy.

By the way - atheists coming in to power?
Can you please name a person who was executed - in the name of atheism?

 

[Tinker Grey]

People squabble ... and there are always bad actors in the drama. Just oversee any child's playground to confirm that. At the least, the stated aim of christianity is to teach and encourage us to LOVE one another.

Which, unfortunately, never seems to have been on the agenda whenever atheists have come into power ...

"The stated aim" must have been such a comfort to the victims of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and the innumerable souls harried, burned, beheaded, hung, evicted or persecuted for various forms of heresy.

By the way - atheists coming in to power?
Can you please name a person who was executed - in the name of atheism?

This quote applies:

“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything​

{Emphasis added}

Or this one:

“I'll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.

And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.”
― Madalyn Murray O'Hair​

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This quote applies:

“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything​

{Emphasis added}

Or this one:

“I'll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.

And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.”
― Madalyn Murray O'Hair​

Lest we forget.
Thank you, Tinker Gray.

 

[A_Thinker]

"The stated aim" must have been such a comfort to the victims of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and the innumerable souls harried, burned, beheaded, hung, evicted or persecuted for various forms of heresy.

By the way - atheists coming in to power?
Can you please name a person who was executed - in the name of atheism?

I can tell you that 100 million were slaughtered in the 20th century alone ... when atheists came into power ... with their own ideologies ....

 

[A_Thinker]

“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”

Depravity is the default HUMAN condition ... and is not confined to any particular grouping.

 

[A_Thinker]

“I'll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.

This is the grouping testament of EVERY group of persons who ever existed.

It is not unique to anyone.

The irreligious persecuted the religious (and others) in the atheistic societies of the 20th century.

By then, most Christians were warming up to notions of peace, love, and brotherhood, ... but I guess every ideology gets their turn at being the bane of the world ...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Again: please tell me which people have been killed in the name of atheism.

 

[A_Thinker]

Again: please tell me which people have been killed in the name of atheism.

I'd assume you wouldn't count religionists who were massacred in atheistic societies ???

 

[Tinker Grey]

I'd assume you wouldn't count religionists who were massacred in atheistic societies ???

You seem to be missing @InterestedAtheist's requirement "in the name of atheism."

 

[A_Thinker]

You seem to be missing @InterestedAtheist's requirement "in the name of atheism."

Given the reality of the situation, ... why would that make any difference ?

Is evil done in a society as it strives to enforce atheism any less evil ... because it wasn't done, obstensibly, in the "name of atheism" ?

Are the dead any less dead ?

 

[cvanwey]

Yes, you can refuse to let someone make an argument. All it takes is stalling at the first step and then insisting over and over again that it isn't relevant. That's disruptive enough for a straightforward argument, much less a more theological if not postmodern one.



I don't even know what that means, especially since the Tetragrammaton is predominantly used in Judaism, not Christianity. Are you asking me if I think Judaism is true? That depends on what you mean by "true," since I'm fairly liberal with the Old Testament. I obviously don't accept the strict monotheism of Islam or modern Judaism, so you could even argue that I don't believe in YHWH.



You're clearly not reading anything I write if you think that I feel that I have "smoking gun" evidence. I said on the very first page that I didn't think that it worked that way.

Okay, let me water it down, even more...

- Do you believe in a singular God? If so, Who?
- If not, or are not quite sure, why are you here, in this thread?
- What is [your] 'smoking gun' evidence? Meaning, if you are 'well-versed', 'well read', educated, what overwhelming evidence, converted you from saying "I don't know', to instead saying... 'fill-in-the-blank'?

 

[Silmarien]

- Do you believe in a singular God? If so, Who?

Yes. The second question doesn't make sense, since monotheism implies that there aren't multiple Gods to choose between in the first place.

- If not, or are not quite sure, why are you here, in this thread?

N/A

- What is [your] 'smoking gun' evidence? Meaning, if you are 'well-versed', 'well read', educated, what overwhelming evidence, converted you from saying "I don't know', to instead saying... 'fill-in-the-blank'?

What is my smoking gun evidence for monotheism? I thought you wanted to skip that question altogether here.

 

[cvanwey]

Yes. The second question doesn't make sense, since monotheism implies that there aren't multiple Gods to choose between in the first place.



N/A



What is my smoking gun evidence for monotheism? I thought you wanted to skip that question altogether here.

Getting answers from you, is literally like pulling teeth

1. I'm not going to go through all 20+ pages to this thread. But it would appear that there is a possibility that you believe that the [Christian God] is THE God, for which you believe? And by 'Christian God', you can almost fill in your own blank practically, as your interpretation and/or definition may differ. Yes or no? If yes, please proceed. If no, then please clarify that you are "a generic deist/theist, still trying to figure out which of the asserted Gods is THE God, or other?."

2. If the above answer is yes, I would assume you have not come to your current conclusion(s), merely upon a whim or a hunch. Hence, what piece(s) of evidence compels (you) that your asserted God is THE God? And once this is revealed, care to discuss what facets of those evidence(s) specifically does it for [you]?