Anti-universalism hostility

[TheLostCoin]

The real question is what makes David Bentley Hart any better than Fr. Feeney?

Fr. Feeney was a Catholic priest who believed that anybody who did not receive a water baptism was going to burn in hell forever, and if you would have been saved, God would have provided you the means to receive the water.

Ignoring the whole corpus of Catholic tradition which explicitly stated the opposite - that it was possible to be saved without a water baptism - especially given the fact that some Saints have been canonized being Catechumens who were martyred - he paraded this way to his death, and any time he was questioned, he just assumed the worst of people and used appeals to emotions and juvenile ad-hominem attacks to justify himself. For instance, he would believe that anyone who didn't think likewise was just a "compromiser" who "didn't care about spreading the Gospel" and that those who opposed him were "Modernists."

David Bentley Hart is no different. He's just some dude who questions the whole of Orthodox Tradition against the countless testimonies of Saints, Scriptures, and Liturgical readings which do explicate the existence of an eternal hell, and whenever he attacks someone, he assumes their worst intentions as "a child who wants people to burn in hell."

He'll be remembered like Fr. Feeney, as just some rebel pseudo-theologian that nobody remembers, except petulant immaturity for those who do remember.

 

[mkgal1]

The Church in the 6th century very clearly did.

Are you referring to Origen's form of universalism? That's different.

 

[mkgal1]

Show me where Jesus stated clearly "If a person doesn't 'give their heart to me' they will forever be tormented in Hell". If it were such a critical matter - certainly He wouldn't have left it vague and confusing.....it would have been His entire ministry (and not just during His time - why don't we see it stated in the first five books of the Old Testament clearly - especially in the account of Adam and Eve?).

 

[FineLinen]

The fact remains, however, and should be acknowledged, that there are relatively few verses that suggest Universalism whereas there are many that seem inescapably to be teaching that not everyone will be saved.

If a person hopes or wants to say that Universalism is true, that's his own opinion or hope and it doesn't bother me at all. If, however, he claims Scripture in order to support his view--as should be done--then the claim fails, since Scripture, if taken in total, does not support the idea.

Dear Albion: The Restitution of the all is more than suggested! Perhaps the Master has more interest in broken pieces of bread & fish that nothing be lost rather than the broken men & women for whom He is the at-one-ment?

Nope!

 

[mmksparbud]

It matters diddly squat what Hart or Feeney or any "founding father" has to say ion the matter. It only matters what the word of God has to say on the matter. It is only God's view that is important -- not any man's.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The sentence is eternal---whether unto life or unto death. There is no such thing as the goats that have been sentenced to everlasting punishment get out and inherit eternal life. No universalist has ever produced a verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire and into everlasting life----not one----ever. It is not anywhere in the bible. All who think there will be a 2nd chance after death, and wait for that, are completely deluded and will end up lost.

 

[FineLinen]

That is certainly a fine sounding argument, dear sister.

But Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5 that after a person dies it is a real possibility they can be thrown into hell, and that such a fate is worse than death itself.

That seems both clear and irrefutable to me. If you get to meet God face to face, be sure to ask him if he feels like a failure over sending people, or the devil, or the devil's angels to hell. (Matthew 25:41)

Dear Gregorikos: All four hells have a final resting place in the Lake of all lakes, the Lake of Theos radiating with theion & theioo.

Our God prevails over all death, all despair, all hells: ALL

 

[Chris V++]

Isn't "The Restitution of All Things" a Jehovah's Witnesses tagline? I remember it from one of their booklets, maybe from Contents page.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Are you referring to Origen's form of universalism? That's different.

"If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."

The Greek word is "Apocatastasis," which is the idea that all of creation will be restored to it's original form.

Also, if it wasn't clear:

"IF anyone shall say that the life of the spirits shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning: let him be anathema."

Show me where Jesus stated clearly "If a person doesn't 'give their heart to me' they will forever be tormented in Hell". If it were such a critical matter - certainly He wouldn't have left it vague and confusing.....it would have been His entire ministry (and not just during His time - why don't we see it stated in the Old Testament clearly?). Why didn't Paul mention Hell in any of his letters?

Saint Paul clearly mentions judgment and damnation all over the place, and clearly regards that damnation to consist of fire.

Romans 2:2-11
Titus 3:10-11
Colossians 3:5-7
2 Thessalonians 1:3-10

That's not to mention the Book of Revelation making it abundantly clear, as well as all of Jesus's Sermons, including the parable of Lazarus and the Greedy man, the parable of the man not prepared for the wedding feast, the parable of the foolish virgins, the parable of the sheep and the goats, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

I have nothing against modern-day Jews.....but, personally, I am Christian so I don't give much credibility to these sources you cite in the formation of my faith.

My intent had nothing to do with the formation of your faith. Apparently you ignored all the scripture I quoted on which the ancient Jews based their faith and practice.
.....The author you quoted reiterated the patently false, shall I say lie, that the Christian belief in hell stems from pagan Greek beliefs and Dante's inferno. As I have shown from 3 Jewish sources that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Ge-Hinnom and sheol, transliterated in the 225 BC Greek LXX as Gehenna and hades. When Jesus spoke about Gehenna and hades many Jews would have understood Him to be talking about what we call "hell."
.....And if I recall correctly all 12 of Jesus' disciples were Jews. Jesus and His disciples would have been familiar with the Jewish belief in hell but everything Jesus taught about the fate of the wicked was virtually the same as what the Jews taught.
.....The author also repeated the patently false internet rumor that when Jesus said Gehenna he was talking about the valley outside Jerusalem where bodies and trash were constantly burned. There is no archaeological or literary support for that. But there is a valley which was used as a trash dump near Jerusalem it was the Kidron valley on the opposite of Jerusalem. I posted some of the archaeological findings which support that.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Show me where Jesus stated clearly "If a person doesn't 'give their heart to me' they will forever be tormented in Hell". If it were such a critical matter - certainly He wouldn't have left it vague and confusing.....it would have been His entire ministry (and not just during His time - why don't we see it stated in the first five books of the Old Testament clearly - especially in the account of Adam and Eve?).

Also, asking to prove a negative is logically flawed, because it's way more ridiculously difficult to prove a negative than prove a positive.

It's why courts assert "innocent till proven guilty."

"Your honor, this woman murdered my sister!"
"Madam, where's your evidence?"
"Why your honor, why don't you prove it DIDN'T happen?"


I can use the same Biblical argument.

"I believe that God is actually a three-headed dragon. Where in the Bible does it say that God isn't a three-headed dragon?"

 

[FineLinen]

Let's have Fine Linen show us the verses that he thinks prove Universal Salvation. I contend that there are only about a half-dozen which seem to suggest such a thing.

On the other hand, I am sure that everybody here knows that there are many which talk of eternal death or the like, and counting all of them would take some time and effort. That time and effort would be a waste if the other side simply came back with verses that speak of God's love or etc. along with a claim that such verses "prove" Universal Salvation (which they do not).

But if that is unacceptable, I will post the verses that I say seem to suggest Universal Salvation. They are few enough that this would be done without much difficulty.

Dear Albion: I will be thrilled to point you to the verses after you can show me ONE single verse that speaks of "eternal death/ aidios thanatos" !

"And there shall be NO MORE thanatos .

 

[Der Alte]

Show me where Jesus stated clearly "If a person doesn't 'give their heart to me' they will forever be tormented in Hell". If it were such a critical matter - certainly He wouldn't have left it vague and confusing.....it would have been His entire ministry (and not just during His time - why don't we see it stated in the first five books of the Old Testament clearly - especially in the account of Adam and Eve?).

Please show me one verse, 2 or more would be better, where Jesus, Himself, said that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death?

 

[mkgal1]

"If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."

Which is more of an idea of incarnation - which is not the same as:

The Greek word is "Apocatastasis," which is the idea that all of creation will be restored to it's original form.

.....which is the belief that God will restore all of creation to its state of Eden. To believe that no matter ceases to exist isn't "pre-existence of souls". It's no different than believing in ECT....which is a person either living eternally WITH God.....or dying eternally without God.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Which is more of an idea of incarnation - which is not the same as:

.....which is the belief that God will restore all of creation to its state of Eden. To believe that no matter ceases to exist isn't "pre-existence of souls". It's no different than believing in ECT....which is a person either living eternally WITH God.....or dying eternally without God.

The original Greek word in this canon "Restoration" is Apocatastasis. That is, "Restoration" is a translation of "Apocatastasis."

And let me be perfectly clear.

I don't think it's wrong at all to hope that God will save all people and to pray for such a thing. To sincerely desire such a thing, and pray for it, and I mean sincerely, is truly Christ-like, because Christ Himself loves every single man unconditionally, hence why He came down from Heaven and suffered such an agonizing death for us, crucified naked and bloodied to a cross.

It's quite a world of difference to play the role of God and say that everyone is going to find Paradise, and if not then God isn't Love.

 

[mkgal1]

Please show me one verse, 2 or more would be better, where Jesus said that all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death?

" When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.”~John 12:32​

Elsewhere:

In the same way that everyone dies in Adam, so also everyone will be given life in Christ.~1st Corinthians 15:22​

The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.~Titus 2:1​

 

[FineLinen]

The real question is what makes David Bentley Hart any better than Fr. Feeney?

Fr. Feeney was a Catholic priest who believed that anybody who did not receive a water baptism was going to burn in hell forever, and if you would have been saved, God would have provided you the means to receive the water.

Dear Father Feeny: As you lean your head upon Abba crying dearest Daddy, please ask Him why He is intending to burn His beloved creation in the torments of unending darkness, despair and mindless nonsense.

 

[mkgal1]

It's quite a world of difference to play the role of God and say that everyone is going to find Paradise, and if not then God isn't Love.

There's no way for any of us to "play the role of God" - either way He will decide. But how is our putting forth our belief that God WILL be victorious in reconciling ALL to Him any more of an example of "playing God" than those that threaten eternal torment via God? Either way, it could be said that both sides are giving their interpretation of what they believe God will do (through their interpretation of the Biblical text).....correct?

 

[FineLinen]

The original Greek word in this canon "Restoration" is Apocatastasis. That is, "Restoration" is a translation of "Apocatastasis."

And let me be perfectly clear.

I don't think it's wrong at all to hope that God will save all people and to pray for such a thing. To sincerely desire such a thing, and pray for it, and I mean sincerely, is truly Christ-like, because Christ Himself loves every single man unconditionally, hence why He came down from Heaven and suffered such an agonizing death for us, crucified naked and bloodied to a cross.

It's quite a world of difference to play the role of God and say that everyone is going to find Paradise, and if not then God isn't Love.

Dear Lost Coin: One is only lost until found by the One who loses nothing.

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well… If a person is a ‘lost sinner’ it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-

The good, the bad & the ugly

 

[TheLostCoin]

There's no way for any of us to "play the role of God" - either way He will decide. But how is our putting forth our belief that God WILL be victorious in reconciling ALL to Him any more of an example of "playing God" than those that threaten eternal torment via God? Either way, it could be said that both sides are giving their interpretation of what God will do.....correct?

Eternal torment for mankind is a potentiality (that is, something which may happen). Universal reconciliation is an actuality (something that will happen).

Moreover, the fear of hell helps motivate mankind to move to repentance from their idols of earthly things.

From the (Byzantine) Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom:
"Behold, the Bridegroom comes at midnight,
And blessed is that servant whom He shall find watching,
And again, unworthy is the servant whom He shall find heedless.
Beware, therefore, O my soul, do not be weighed down with sleep,
Lest you be given up to death, and lest you be shut out of the Kingdom.
But rouse yourself crying: Holy, Holy, Holy, art Thou, O our God,
Through the Theotokos have mercy on us."


Also, the devil and his angels are eternally condemned already; they had superinfused knowledge and knew with absolutely certainty what would result. Remember, Hell is a state of being, not merely a physical location.

 

[mkgal1]

Moreover, the fear of hell helps motivate mankind to move to repentance from their idols of earthly things.

Fear motivates external compliance - not an intrinsic heart change:

Romans 2:4 ~ Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?​

1 John 4:19 ~ We love because he first loved us.

Romans 5:8 ~ But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:10 ~ And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:18 ~ There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.​