Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree but the issue you raise occurs when there is an unequal yoke.

The temptations to sin, which according to Scripture most people (everyone) does,
is common to all men worldwide,
yoked properly/'equally' or not.
Some (most?) choose to disobey ABBA, according to Scripture.

 

[Gregorikos]

My response...
There are many verses that confirm this fact, not just one.

There isn't even one. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is about marriage, not church leadership. And that is the primary, go-to verse used by patriarchalists to limit women's service to God, as it is the only one with language that prohibits something.

God does not treat the wife and husband in marriage the same.

In the garden he did. Both got the same mandate to have dominion. (Genesis 1:28) There is not mention of anything resembling inequality until the fall.

They have different functions physically and spiritually.

Spiritually? I disagree. You have no scriptural support for such a statement.

Who are we to say what is fair.

Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? 1 Corinthians 6:3 (NRSV)

He chooses 12 men to lead the church.

It is a logical fallacy to assume that because part of a group (the 12 apostles) were all male, that the whole of the group (all Christian leaders for all time) is also male. That is an error in logic. (Composition fallacy.)

And your assumption is proven wrong by the fact that God used women as leaders in both the old Testament (Miriam, Deborah, Huldah) and New Testament (Priscilla, Junia, Phoebe, Chloe, Nympha)

He loves and values all alike but has the prerogative to distribute gifts as He wills and appoint who He wills.
No man or woman should assume to be His counsellor.

Then please stop doing that. And please stop discouraging women from using the gifts that God gave them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps the best know woman who obeyed the Creator Yahweh in the last hundred years was
Corrie ten Boom.
She obeyed, and shared her testimony, without disobeying (and if ever she sinned, she repented, Scripturally, as she was a woman of prayer and close fellowship with Jesus and with the Father in heaven all of her life) .
Men and woman ought to do likewise. Pray constantly. This is required, not optional, to walk with Jesus and to abide in Him in the Father.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You can interpret that as you wish. But it is your interpretation. Don't confuse your interpretation of what the Bible says with what it actually says.

What it actually says is the husband is the head of the wife, not the household.

That is not what it says, as I demonstrated to you; it is too bad you refuse to understand simple basic bible verses.

 

[Gregorikos]

That is not what it says, as I demonstrated to you; it is too bad you refuse to understand simple basic bible verses.

Here it is in plain English.

For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23 (NRSV)

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (NRSV)

You cannot show me a verse in the New Testament that says the husband is or should be the head of the HOUSE. Neither he nor his wife care called the head of the children, or the head of the slaves. Yet clearly they are in authority over both the children and the slaves.

I don't think "head" is a reference to authority.

 

[bekkilyn]

Here it is in plain English.

For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23 (NRSV)

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (NRSV)

You cannot show me a verse in the New Testament that says the husband is or should be the head of the HOUSE. Neither he nor his wife care called the head of the children, or the head of the slaves. Yet clearly they are in authority over both the children and the slaves.

I don't think "head" is a reference to authority.

It absolutely cannot mean authority as then the verse would literally mean that God has authority over Christ and we know for a fact that it's not true. While Jesus very temporarily gave authority to the Father while incarnated on earth, this verse is talking about Christ, not just Jesus the man, and Jesus the Christ IS God with all the same authority and all the same essence as God. (Being that "Christ" is a title and not a last name.)

However, Christ (being God) was there at creation and was the beginning of all humankind, and Christ is also the beginning of the church. The man (the Adam which can also means humankind) was the first, and the woman was created from his body, so the man is simply the first human at the beginning of creation and all of the rest of humanity came from this first human with God/Christ as the originator.

There is nothing about authority at all. If Paul had intended "head" to have anything to do with authority or rulership in this verse, he would have used αρχή, but he didn't. He used a word that simply references a body part for an analogy in teaching Gentiles about Christ. Paul wants to ensure and emphasize that people know that Jesus wasn't just a great man, but that he IS God, especially as the denial of Christ's divinity was one of the big issues in these churches.

However, there are those who make every attempt to lessen Paul's gospel message to making it about how nuclear families (which didn't even exist in the first century) need to be set up in order to promote a social agenda of male power and superiority. They absolutely cannot conceive that God's Kingdom isn't about power and superiority and beating some people down in order to raise other people up. (But all the name of "love" of course.)

 

[Carl Emerson]

In the garden he did. Both got the same mandate to have dominion. (Genesis 1:28) There is not mention of anything resembling inequality until the fall.

Well 12 men have the same leadership in eternity when all harmony is restored.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The temptations to sin, which according to Scripture most people (everyone) does,
is common to all men worldwide,
yoked properly/'equally' or not.
Some (most?) choose to disobey ABBA, according to Scripture.

Of course this is correct I was just making another point.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? 1 Corinthians 6:3 (NRSV)

That is in our redeemed state in the resurrected life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I deny the error of male superiority, and the idea that as Christians our inter-personal relationships should be dominated by the same ungodly and wayward principles as we see in the world. Our relationships are based not on power but sacrifice. We come to one another in weakness. As fellow servants.

So do I - leadership is not about superiority it is a servant gift.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In case anyone is wondering what this supposed "biblical marriage" we are all supposed to return to looks like:

(Women had even less status in areas of Greece, so this description of Rome is actually pretty liberal by comparison, but the family structure is the same.)

Ancient Roman Family Life

This refers to cultural marriage not scriptural marriage. Paul never advocated domination in marriage but he did advocate male leadership.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But not everyone is unsure. I'm very confident in my position. I don't need to back away from that confidence because not everyone shares it.

Yes I agree...

Rom 14:
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl Emerson said: ↑
They have different functions physically and spiritually.

Spiritually? I disagree. You have no scriptural support for such a statement.

Yes I do, unlike other nations Israel had no female priests. This was a spiritual function reserved for men.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The moment things become about power there's already a problem in the family dynamic.

The moment the husband thinks he's the boss, it's dysfunctional already. The husband isn't the boss, he's a partner. And is tasked with submitting to and loving his wife and children, and being a servant to his family in humble and lowly imitation of Christ who gave His life for the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

He is also tasked with being a servant leader.

 

[bekkilyn]

This refers to cultural marriage not scriptural marriage. Paul never advocated domination in marriage but he did advocate male leadership.

Nope, it is exactly the type of marriage structure to which Paul was referring in his epistles. Leadership that excludes both male and female leadership can only be domination of one over the other, and that's not at all what Paul was advocating. Paul never advocated good news for the few and bad news for the rest.

 

[Gregorikos]

That is in our redeemed state in the resurrected life.

Carl, I believe you are an intelligent man. And I'm pretty sure you've read 1 Cor 6 before. So I'm beginning to wonder if you don't simply enjoy wrangling over words.

Here is the context. CLEARLY it is in reference to judging in this life. And I think you know this.

When any of you has a grievance against another, do you dare to take it to court before the unrighteous, instead of taking it before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? If you have ordinary cases, then, do you appoint as judges those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to decide between one believer and another, but a believer goes to court against a believer—and before unbelievers at that? 1 Corinthians 6:1-6 (NRSV)

 

[Gregorikos]

Carl Emerson said: ↑
They have different functions physically and spiritually.



Yes I do, unlike other nations Israel had no female priests. This was a spiritual function reserved for men.

That's another fallacy of composition. The priesthood now is held by every believer, male and female.

 

[bekkilyn]

Carl Emerson said: ↑
They have different functions physically and spiritually.

Yes I do, unlike other nations Israel had no female priests. This was a spiritual function reserved for men.

Under the New Covenant, Jesus Christ is our only mediator and high priest.

Also unlike other nations, Israel also had no Gentile priests, so it was a function reserved *only* for Israelites/Jews.

And yet again we are not attempting to bar Gentiles from leadership functions and force them into subservient roles.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It is a logical fallacy to assume that because part of a group (the 12 apostles) were all male, that the whole of the group (all Christian leaders for all time) is also male. That is an error in logic. (Composition fallacy.)

I didn't make that assumption, however we have no record of any female being appointed an apostle or moving in that gifting.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Just so people are on the same page:
Gentiles [N] [T] http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/gentiles.html http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/smiths-bible-dictionary/gentiles.html

(Heb., usually in plural, goyim), meaning in general all nations except the Jews. In course of time, as the Jews began more and more to pride themselves on their peculiar privileges, it acquired unpleasant associations, and was used as a term of contempt.

In the New Testament the Greek word Hellenes, meaning literally Greek (as in Acts 16:1 Acts 16:3 ; 18:17 ; Romans 1:14 ), generally denotes any non-Jewish nation.

So no, Israel worship would include NO gentile priests......