How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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Bungle_Bear

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Most people of all ages have plenty of evidence that spirits exist and so they believe in them. You are in no position to judge the rest of the world, or wave away the experiences of mankind. Nor are you in any position to say my experiences with the spiritual are not real.
Where'd that irony metre go? Oh dear, you broke it this time.

tenor.gif
 
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dad

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Actually, you said I'd call you a liar. You also said physical evidence, and what you've presented is not physical evidence.
Seriously? You want evidence that someone saw what they observed or you wave it away? If that is the case how would we know a scientist in a lab really saw what he observed?
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Seriously? You want evidence that someone saw what they observed or you wave it away?
Stop moving goalposts. If somebody says "physical evidence" I expect physical evidence, not a vision. If the old man had punched Strathos that would be different.
If that is the case how would we know a scientist in a lab really saw what he observed?
The idea with science is that you can repeat an experiment and see what the scientist saw for yourself. If you want to handwave away your own experience that's your choice, but you don't get to handwave away repeatable experiments.
 
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pitabread

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You want evidence that someone saw what they observed or you wave it away?

Evidence that someone saw some thing isn't evidence that the thing they saw was an external entity.

Hallucinations are something that people can and do experience. I've seen more "ghosts" than I can count, but I know they are not real.
 
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SelfSim

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Bungle_Bear said:
dad said:
If that is the case how would we know a scientist in a lab really saw what he observed?
The idea with science is that you can repeat an experiment and see what the scientist saw for yourself. If you want to handwave away your own experience that's your choice, but you don't get to handwave away repeatable experiments.
... in a controlled 'lab' environment also, what's more ..
 
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SelfSim

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Evidence that someone saw some thing isn't evidence that the thing they saw was an external entity.
Well, an objective entity, that is ..

pitabread said:
Hallucinations are something that people can and do experience. I've seen more "ghosts" than I can count, but I know they are not real.
Well, objectively real, that is ...
 
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SelfSim

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Something that is only subjectively real is commonly called a delusion.
Agreed ..
So it really comes down to what we mean by 'subjective' and 'objective', and on what basis we distinguish between them, eh? ('Objective' is the scientific method. 'Subjective' is a belief based approach. Both produce a sense of reality however .. and dad is currently demonstrating that he sits mostly in the belief-based approach .. although he's also demonstrating that he'll flop either way at any time, in order to satisfy his desire to 'win' a totally brainless argument).
 
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dad

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Evidence that someone saw some thing isn't evidence that the thing they saw was an external entity.

Hallucinations are something that people can and do experience. I've seen more "ghosts" than I can count, but I know they are not real.
OK. Never met anyone that saw visions before and did not know if they were real unless maybe it was some friend on drugs as a kid or something.
 
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dad

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Stop moving goalposts. If somebody says "physical evidence" I expect physical evidence, not a vision. If the old man had punched Strathos that would be different.
If Gabriel appeared to you for an hour-long chat and had tea at your place, what physical evidence would you offer the next year, that this had occurred? It seems foolish to me to even raise the possibility that such evidence should exist. The evidence would be that you saw and talked to him.
The idea with science is that you can repeat an experiment and see what the scientist saw for yourself.

So this would not apply to anything spiritual.

If you want to handwave away your own experience that's your choice, but you don't get to handwave away repeatable experiments.
Never said I wanted to. However, the lesson here is that the methods applied to physical science have nothing to do with evidence expected from spiritual experiences.
 
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pitabread

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OK. Never met anyone that saw visions before and did not know if they were real unless maybe it was some friend on drugs as a kid or something.

I've had lots of discussions with people that have interpreted hallucinations as ghosts, demons, angels, etc.

Especially when it comes to those associated with sleep related phenomenon (especially sleep paralysis), heightened states of fear, and so on. Such occurrences seem to be historically speaking the reason for a lot of belief in various phenomena like ghosts, demons, alien abduction, and other alleged paranormal activity.

Having experienced quite a bit of these things myself is partially why I'm so fascinated by them and what causes them.

For example, not that long ago I learned about the effects of infrasound on people and how it can cause anxiety and fear. I used to wake up in the middle of the night with intense anxiety for no reason, until I later traced the cause to infrasound generated from the fridge in my house.

This is why I don't outright dismiss people's experiences with these things, because the experiences themselves are real. It's just the attribution of the cause that may not be accurate.
 
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dad

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I've had lots of discussions with people that have interpreted hallucinations as ghosts, demons, angels, etc.

Especially when it comes to those associated with sleep paralysis or other sleep related phenomenon. Such occurrences seem to be historically speaking the reason for a lot of belief in various phenomena like ghosts, demons, alien abduction, and other alleged paranormal activity.
Mary was not sleep deprived. Daniel either. Both chatted with Gabriel. In Daniels' case, he was told the EXACT year that Messiah would come! He was correct. That is evidence.
Because there is some unknown factors regarding the birth year of Jesus, and other things around the time of Christ, no one knows the exact days involved now. So I won't try to get into a long involved debate over how Daniel was given the exact days also. The year is all we need to certify the prophecy as from God.
 
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dad

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No, it's just a story.
Anything you declare is a story is a fantasy. Got it. Oh, wait, they saw Jesus ascending back to Heaven, guess it was a mass hallucination? Maybe they were all just sleep-deprived? Maybe Jesus really did not come when He did, so we can dismiss Daniel also? Maybe there was no Paul? Peter? John? Napoleon?
 
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pitabread

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Anything you declare is a story is a fantasy. Got it.

I didn't say it was fantasy. I said it was just a story, in contrast to your claim that it is evidence.

Oh, wait, they saw Jesus ascending back to Heaven, guess it was a mass hallucination? Maybe they were all just sleep-deprived? Maybe Jesus really did not come when He did, so we can dismiss Daniel also? Maybe there was no Paul? Peter? John? Napoleon?

Maybe. I mean, it all happened in the past and apparently we can't test any of that to know for sure. ;)
 
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Bungle_Bear

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If Gabriel appeared to you for an hour-long chat and had tea at your place, what physical evidence would you offer the next year, that this had occurred? It seems foolish to me to even raise the possibility that such evidence should exist. The evidence would be that you saw and talked to him.
I wouldn't say I had experienced physical evidence. Just leave the goalposts alone and deal with what has been said, not what you wish had been said.

So this would not apply to anything spiritual.
Nobody said it would. There you go again, moving goalposts. If you can't discuss the content of others' posts, just say nothing. Don't make up strawmen.
Never said I wanted to. However, the lesson here is that the methods applied to physical science have nothing to do with evidence expected from spiritual experiences.
The lesson here is that you need to stop moving goalposts and stick to what has actually been said even when it means you have nothing to say in return.
 
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dad

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I didn't say it was fantasy. I said it was just a story, in contrast to your claim that it is evidence.
Stories do not contain a link to God that changes lives. Stories are not recorded events sealed in the blood of people dying to declare it true. Stories do not contain things foretold with perfect accuracy centuries before they happened.
 
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dad

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I wouldn't say I had experienced physical evidence. Just leave the goalposts alone and deal with what has been said, not what you wish had been said
And when Mary had the physical evidence God did as the angel said? Would you deny you had the evidence?

Nobody said it would. There you go again, moving goalposts. If you can't discuss the content of others' posts, just say nothing. Don't make up strawmen.
The OP is about how to prove God exists. That would not include physical tests or science. The fact that the spiritual is way beyond all reaches of science is the important component in the arguments here.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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And when Mary had the physical evidence God did as the angel said? Would you deny you had the evidence?
A single 3rd hand report from a highly biased source should not be taken as true without some other form of corroboration. You don't have that, so I see no reason to take the claim at all seriously.
The OP is about how to prove God exists. That would not include physical tests or science. The fact that the spiritual is way beyond all reaches of science is the important component in the arguments here.
You were not responding to the OP.
 
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