The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Charlie24]

The UR says there in no eternal hell. I say there is and present the evidence.

I have become a damnationalist, I'm placed by false pretenses to defend myself on something that is not true.

I have no room in my heart to see an unrighteous God. I can only see the love of a God who has made a way for us the escape this eternal hell, if only we will take Him at His Word.

So I push on, telling everyone I can that God is love, look what He has provided for you if you will only believe Him.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The UR says there in no eternal hell. I say there is and present the evidence.

I have become a damnationalist, I'm placed by false pretenses to defend myself on something that is not true.

I have no room in my heart to see an unrighteous God. I can only see the love of a God who has made a way for us the escape this eternal hell, if only we will take Him at His Word.

So I push on, telling everyone I can that God is love, look what He has provided for you if you will only believe Him.

Thanks for persisting Charlie.

Do you not see a problem with a god who creates an eternal hell and then says (to the effect) 'If you don't love me, that's where you will go.'..?

Do you hold a gun to a girl's head to get her to love you, Charlie?

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks for persisting Charlie.

Do you not see a problem with a god who creates an eternal hell and then says (to the effect) 'If you don't love me, that's where you will go.'..?

Do you hold a gun to a girl's head to get her to love you, Charlie?

I have no right to hold a gun to her head.

I didn't create the girl, God did, and he has the right to call the shots, not you!

It's God's way or no way at all! I fear you may never come to this truth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I have no right to hold a gun to her head.

I didn't create the girl, God did, and he has the right to call the shots, not you!

It's God's way or no way at all! I fear you may never come to this truth.

Easy, tiger. So you're saying that the way God shows His love is completely contrary to the way man shows his love?

 

[Charlie24]

Easy, tiger. So you're saying that the way God shows His love is completely contrary to the way man shows his love?

I'm saying right now that I have more important

 

[Charlie24]

I'm saying right now that I have more important things to do than argue such trivial things.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God's love is unimportant? Perhaps I can interest you in the fires of hell, now sweeping across the Australian bush, coming soon to a forest near you.

Time to eat another steak?

 

[Charlie24]

God's love is unimportant? Perhaps I can interest you in the fires of hell, now sweeping across the Australian bush, coming soon to a forest near you.

Time to eat another steak?

No, it's bacon and eggs this morning.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No, it's bacon and eggs this morning.

Well, in that case it's pearls of God's universal love before the breakfast rashers of swine.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I did a bit of research and found this book review video.

Since we believe the release of David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall be Saved is a significant event, we felt like it deserved a significant review! And who better to do it than these two distinguished professors and our dear friends, Chris Green, professor of theology at Southeastern University (and author of Surprised by God, The End is Music, Sanctifying Interpretation, & Toward a Pentecostal Theology of the Lord’s Supper) and Brad Jersak (Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, A More Christlike God, A More Christlike Way, IN: Incarnation & Inclusion, Abba & Lamb). We share our thoughts on Hart’s book, eternal conscious torment, inclusion, whether or not the language of universalism is helpful, and much more!

Here's an interview with the man himself...if you dare:

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, completely relevant.
I agree that an "honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.” However, that is no basis for a doctrine. Sounds like shadow boxing.

And it is ridiculous to use as a refutation of Universalism.

That wasn’t the basis for my refutation, it was the fact that Jesus said that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He also said not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter heaven. This is a crystal clear indication that not everyone will enter heaven. This means that there WILL BE people who say to Him Lord Lord who will not enter heaven. If at anytime everyone enters heaven then Matthew 7:21 is a false statement. The rich man in the story about Lazarus was repentant in hades and he wasn’t allowed to cross over.

 

[FineLinen]

The UR says there in no eternal hell. I say there is and present the evidence.

Charles: What you have managed to accomplish is your inability to grasp anything outside of your limited horizon. I do trust you will find solace in your neighborhood.

Everlasting hell (all four of them) is NOT a Scriptural term!

Search = Everlasting hell.

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

Search = Eternal hell.

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

 

[FineLinen]

That wasn’t the basis for my refutation, it was the fact that Jesus said that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He also said not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter heaven. This is a crystal clear indication that not everyone will enter heaven. This means that there WILL BE people who say to Him Lord Lord who will not enter heaven. If at anytime everyone enters heaven then Matthew 7:21 is a false statement. Lazarus was repentant in hades and he wasn’t allowed to cross over.

Dear BNR: for a fellow who does not know what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, my advise would be to find out. After that exercise you should examine the ages in Scripture

The Doctrine of the Ages in the Bible

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dear BNR: for a fellow who does not know what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, my advise would be to find out. After that exercise you should the examine the ages in Scripture

Find out how? By assuming?

 

[Lazarus Short]

IF Hell were real...

It might be mentioned in the creation account. It isn't.

God might have warned Adam, Eve, Cain, and a lot of other people about their risk of ending up there. He didn't.

The Law that God gave to Moses might contain warnings about living in such a way that you would risk going there. It doesn't.

The Bible's many accounts of the deaths of many, many people might have specified whether they went to Hell. They don't.

The word "hell" might stand on its own, instead of being footnoted in the margin as "sheol," "hades," "gehenna" or "tartarus." But it is.

We might expect to find Satan/Lucifer declared as the Ruler of Hell. But he isn't.

We might expect Jesus to speak more of Hell than of anything else, but no, He didn't. I checked - He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven far more, almost ten times more.

We might expect Paul the Apostle to have mentioned Hell, but he didn't.

We might have expected Hell to have a better foundation than dubious translation and the fictions of Dante, Milton and Baxter, but it doesn't.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We might expect Jesus to speak more of Hell than of anything else, but no, He didn't. I checked - He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven far more, almost ten times more.

But Jesus DID speak of it, didn’t He? He actually made several mentions of hell. Every time He used the word Gehenna He was referring to hell.

 

[Lazarus Short]

But Jesus DID speak of it, didn’t He? He actually made several mentions of hell. Every time He used the word Gehenna He was referring to hell.

Well, I checked all the red instances in Strong's having to do with heavenly words and hellish words, using a hand counter. References to the heavenly won by a wide margin, so don't fall for that little bon mot in the future. Anyway, if Jesus used the word "gehenna," remember that is was, and is, a place in the real world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dear BNR: for a fellow who does not know what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, my advise would be to find out. After that exercise you should examine the ages in Scripture

The Doctrine of the Ages in the Bible

Luke 12:10, Matthew 7:21, and Luke 16:19-31 don’t have the words aeon or aeonios in them. There’s no mention of ages in these verses. You also have to take into account that the word aeon and aeonios can mean eternal and given that the parallel accounts of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit use these words but Luke 12:10 does not which gives us an idea of what is actually being said. Luke 12:10 says it won’t be forgiven period just like Matthew 12:31. Matthew 7:21 says not everyone will enter heaven period.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I checked all the red instances in Strong's having to do with heavenly words and hellish words, using a hand counter. References to the heavenly won by a wide margin, so don't fall for that little bon mot in the future. Anyway, if Jesus used the word "gehenna," remember that is was, and is, a place in the real world.

Lol He only had to mention it once for us to know it exists. The ratio of heavenly words to hellish words in the scriptures is completely irrelevant.

 

[Der Alte]

The fire of which Jesus is speaking is holy fire. It may well be experienced by many as intensely painful, because it's burning away the false identity, the sin attachments. But the Great Physician can shatter rock without breaking a bruised reed.

I appreciate this fanciful interpretation but it doesn't really address my post. But the passage says nothing about "holy fire."

Yes, Jesus is tough on sin, and teaching us we need to be so, sin is no trivial thing. I'm guessing you have both eyes and hands intact Der Alter, and like all Christians, you're reluctant to take these admonitions too literally?

Doesn't really address my post.

I don't see how these scriptures support your claim of an either/or decision. Paul is clearly saying the firey trial may destroy 'workmanship', but the person will be saved. It's entirely consistent with fire performing a purifying function.

But for the fact that Paul is not talking about all mankind in 1 Cor 3:9-17, he is only talking to and about those who are"laborers together with God, ... God's husbandry, ... God's building." Vs.9 Who builds on the foundation of Jesus Jesus Christ. vs. 10."
And this passage says nothing about purifying anyone. only the work is tried by fire not people.
In this passage “every man, “any man,”"no man" refers only to those described in vss. 9-10, not all man kind.
And we know this because in vs. 17 God will destroy any man who defiles the temple of God, NOT save them.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​