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The fatal flaw of Universalism

FineLinen

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No one is sent to the lake of fire because of their sin (crime). Jesus took away the sin of the world at the cross and resurrection.

A person goes to the lake of fire because they lack Jesus gift of Everlasting Life/Eternal Life. Why do they lack Everlasting Life because people did not believe in The Messiah for the gift of life.

They judged themselves unworthy of Eternal Life, basically they send themselves

You cannot be serious!

If God Could Save Everyone - Would He? by Dr. Stephen E. Jones

Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin

The Biblical Teaching of Hell by Dr. Ernest L. Martin

Age and the Greek Words Aion and Aionios by Mark Sanguinetti

The Lake of Fire by L. Ray Smith

The Recognition of Universal Reconciliation by Dr. Ernest L. Martin

A Short History of Universal Reconciliation by Dr. Stephen E. Jones

Videos: "Is Hell Forever?" An interview of Louis Abbott by Gary Amirault

Videos: Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin

Videos: Tentmaker Ministries by Gary and Michelle Amirault


THE DOCTRINE OF EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT IS A MISTAKE AND TURNS GOD FROM A TRUE FATHER INTO A TYRANT - AIONIOS IS NEVER "EVERLASTING WITHOUT END" BUT "AGE-LASTING"
 
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Lazarus Short

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I can't save anyone, even if I could I doubt I could muster up the mercy of our Lord.

You can't muster up the mercy of God - no one can. His great Mercy is just one way His ways and thoughts are far, far above our own. With that said, don't you think tossing the wicked into Hell is an awfully poor plan? He already stated in His comments about that pagan entity to whom people were passing their children through the fire - that such a thing had never entered His Heart or Mind. Do you not see that that statement excludes Hell as a solution? No, He has a better Plan than that, a most glorious Plan.
 
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Charlie24

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The mercy of our Lord?
But don't you claim that he will burn his enemies forever with no hope of escape?
What's merciful about that?

What if God would have said no, I'm not sending my perfect Son to die for those heathens who have sinned against me and laugh about it?

We would all go to hell!

But He did have mercy and He does have mercy.

He has made a way for all to escape! None of us deserve this mercy!
 
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Charlie24

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You can't muster up the mercy of God - no one can. His great Mercy is just one way His ways and thoughts are far, far above our own. With that said, don't you think tossing the wicked into Hell is an awfully poor plan? He already stated in His comments about that pagan entity to whom people were passing their children through the fire - that such a thing had never entered His Heart or Mind. Do you not see that that statement excludes Hell as a solution? No, He has a better Plan than that, a most glorious Plan.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit, the One who inspired the writings of God's Word, would allow us and all those before us to be lied to about an eternal hell?

Do you really believe that God would allow that?

The scripture says that God places His Word above His name, but He will allow a lie in His word? No, He will not!
 
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OK, here is my view of the parable, from my book:

Now we reach the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, one of the usual pillars and proofs of the Hell theory – but there is a lot more going on here. First, all of Jesus’ parables, as far as I can tell, are teaching about the Kingdom of God, especially how it operates. We should not view any of it as being literally true in itself. Consider how Jesus explains the parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:24-30) to His disciples. In verses 37-39 He gives it all away – He Himself is the Sower, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the Kingdom, the tares are the children of the “wicked one,” the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. We could say that His parables are allegories or similes. No one has any problem with political cartoons – elephants and asses are political parties, bears are Russia, bulldogs are the UK, etc.



Given that, how should we regard the characters of this parable/allegory/simile? We will go step-by-step. First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in Persia, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was “the last man standing,” or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the nation of Judah.



Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man’s table. This takes us back to Jesus’ brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus’ sores. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them – in fact, the name “Lazarus” in its Hebrew form, is very close to the name of Abraham’s servant Eliezer, who God refused as Abraham’s heir. Any hearer of Jesus who knew the stories of Genesis would not have missed that. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom indiscrimately, Lazarus dies and is brought to Abraham’s bosom.



Now as I’ve said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture than they had had before the Babylonian exile. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called “hell” in the KJV, but CCR footnoted as “hades.” These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf - all that would have been easily understood by Jesus’ hearers.



OK, we’ve got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) is now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43). Do you see how He rejected the figurative fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.



Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the “good fig” Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split from Judaism. The rich man, and those he stands for, is not in such a good place. These “bad figs” have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah the rich man is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.



Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God’s favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” I won’t try to label any specific nation, but for the sake of convenience, let’s just say it is the “nation” of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today’s secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.



The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. This is another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man’s fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those few whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.



There it is, my view on the parable – a prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd.

Well even if our latinised friend doesn't appreciate these pearls Laz, I certainly do. Thanks for helping to fill a few gaps in my understanding of that parable/ prophecy. Your interpretation checks against the details in the story (purple linen, 5 brothers, Eliezer allusions). I agree that the water that Richie craves is the eau de vie that is also part of the Spirit's encouragements in Rev 22:17 to the overcomer.

So Yehudah is left in the doldrums of Sheol/ Hades to contemplate where it went wrong, meantime poor nations inherit the faith of the Kingdom and flourish into Christendom. Excellent.

I don't mind accepting there's also a 'midrashic' interpretation to illustrate the 'it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom' teaching. But ppl need to understand that the story doesn't end there. Rev 22:14-15 teach that Hades will give up its dead and they're cast into the lake of fire. Which brings it back onto the road to God's ultimate plan for creation.

Point is simply that nobody remains in 'hell' interminably, the 'gates of heaven' are always open and the 'water of life' is a free gift on a standing offer.
 
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Saint Steven

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None of us deserve this mercy!
This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Everyone deserves mercy. That's what love does.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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Saint Steven

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The scripture says that God places His Word above His name, but He will allow a lie in His word? No, He will not!
There you go again calling a translation of the bible the Word of God. ("His Word")
 
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Der Alte

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You can't muster up the mercy of God - no one can. His great Mercy is just one way His ways and thoughts are far, far above our own. With that said, don't you think tossing the wicked into Hell is an awfully poor plan? He already stated in His comments about that pagan entity to whom people were passing their children through the fire - that such a thing had never entered His Heart or Mind. Do you not see that that statement excludes Hell as a solution? No, He has a better Plan than that, a most glorious Plan.
By selectively quoting scripture anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.
Were the children being offered to Molech being punished for their sins? Or were the children being offered as a sacrifice to a pagan god for the sins of the parents?
The full context is God did not command and it never entered His mind that Israel should build high places to the pagan god Baal or sacrifice their children to the pagan god Molech.

Jeremiah 32:35
(35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
This verse has nothing to do with how God will punish the unrighteous. Let us remember that God punished thousands by fire, including men, women, old, young, children and infants, when He sent down fire from God in heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and other cities.
The end result was exactly the same for the people in Sodom etc. and the children which were being sacrificed to the pagan god Molech. They all died a horrible, agonizing death by fire.
 
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Charlie24

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There you go again calling a translation of the bible the Word of God. ("His Word")

If God allowed one lie, how many more did he allow?

I have heard you guys say countless times that the translators lied to us.

What other lies did God allow in His Word?

Now I don't know if I can believe the Bible at all.

I hope I don't become an atheist over this!
 
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Saint Steven

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Point is simply that nobody remains in 'hell' interminably, the 'gates of heaven' are always open and the 'water of life' is a free gift on a standing offer.
That's a quotable quote. (pardon the redundant redundancy - lol)

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Bride of Christ, while the gates of heaven are always open. That adds up to Universal Reconciliation. Come on in, the water's fine.
 
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Charlie24

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There you go again calling a translation of the bible the Word of God. ("His Word")

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
 
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Der Alte

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OK, here is my view of the parable, from my book:
Now we reach the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, one of the usual pillars and proofs of the Hell theory – but there is a lot more going on here. First, all of Jesus’ parables, as far as I can tell, are teaching about the Kingdom of God, especially how it operates. We should not view any of it as being literally true in itself. Consider how Jesus explains the parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:24-30) to His disciples. In verses 37-39 He gives it all away – He Himself is the Sower, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the Kingdom, the tares are the children of the “wicked one,” the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. We could say that His parables are allegories or similes. No one has any problem with political cartoons – elephants and asses are political parties, bears are Russia, bulldogs are the UK, etc.

Given that, how should we regard the characters of this parable/allegory/simile? We will go step-by-step. First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in Persia, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was “the last man standing,” or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the nation of Judah.
Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man’s table. This takes us back to Jesus’ brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus’ sores. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them – in fact, the name “Lazarus” in its Hebrew form, is very close to the name of Abraham’s servant Eliezer, who God refused as Abraham’s heir. Any hearer of Jesus who knew the stories of Genesis would not have missed that. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom indiscrimately, Lazarus dies and is brought to Abraham’s bosom.
Now as I’ve said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture than they had had before the Babylonian exile. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called “hell” in the KJV, but CCR footnoted as “hades.” These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf - all that would have been easily understood by Jesus’ hearers.
OK, we’ve got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) is now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43). Do you see how He rejected the figurative fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.
Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the “good fig” Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split from Judaism. The rich man, and those he stands for, is not in such a good place. These “bad figs” have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah the rich man is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.
Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God’s favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” I won’t try to label any specific nation, but for the sake of convenience, let’s just say it is the “nation” of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today’s secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.
The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. This is another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man’s fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those few whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.
There it is, my view on the parable – a prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd.
Google "Lazarus and the rich man" and you will get dozens and dozens of different versions "what the story really means." So which one do we pick as the right one? I choose the version which is found in the writings of the early church. Every ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit, the One who inspired the writings of God's Word, would allow us and all those before us to be lied to about an eternal hell?

Do you really believe that God would allow that?

The scripture says that God places His Word above His name, but He will allow a lie in His word? No, He will not!

Yes, I really believe that we are lied to about "eternal hell." That is why I am here - to dispel the fear of Hell, and belief in its existence. Pardon me, but why do you think God allows a lot of bad things? Why does He tolerate idols such as Santa Claus and statues of dead saints? I could mention a LOT of evil/bad things, but they go on...and on.

Charlie, the Bible, at least in the original Hebrew and Greek, is the best preserved book we have from antiquity, and by a big margin. Yet, as I have said, your English Bible and mine are not, in the strictest sense, His Word. They are a translation.
 
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Saint Steven

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If God allowed one lie, how many more did he allow?

I have heard you guys say countless times that the translators lied to us.

What other lies did God allow in His Word?

Now I don't know if I can believe the Bible at all.

I hope I don't become an atheist over this!
You are making the Bible something it was never intended to be.
Do you have a relationship with a book or with the God that the book tells us about?

What would become of you if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day and then sat down and said to God, "Okay, I'm ready to listen to you now. Talk to me.", what would happen? Would he leave you alone, or speak to you audibly for the first time? Would that be worth it, or would you prefer to keep your library instead?

The problem with Evangelicalism is that they have made a god out of a book. Don't get me wrong, I love the Bible, but I understand that it is not a replacement for my relationship with the living God. Ultimately, I don't need a Bible, all I need is Him.
 
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..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Always good to hear from you der Alter, and feel free to present some material that hasn't been addressed in past threads.

Just on that point, Jesus reveals the oral tradition which apparently taught a hell of eternal conscious torment was a little off-base.

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another. (Mk 9:47-50)

So we see here the warnings and threats customarily associated with hell. But then Jesus takes hellfire and says 'everyone' will experience it, and moreover, it's 'salting' which is 'good' for you and necessary. What?! He's 'subverting the dominant paradigm'! He's talking the purifying power of holy fire and righteous judgment. The use of 'salt' to produce harmonious relations.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows (Mt 10:27-30)

What's he saying here? Don't be afraid of man or the devil, fear God who can destroy your soul, but don't be a birdbrain, you're of incalculable value to Him, He's not gonna do that.

Again, Jesus starts with the assumption and then reveals God's truth is higher, that He's far more gracious and merciful than we can ever anticipate.

Hope this clears things up for you der Alter, and remember the beautiful feet of those who carry the gospel are not necessarily pedicured.
 
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Charlie, the Bible, at least in the original Hebrew and Greek, is the best preserved book we have from antiquity, and by a big margin. Yet, as I have said, your English Bible and mine are not, in the strictest sense, His Word. They are a translation.
Well said. Thanks.
 
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Charlie24

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Yes, I really believe that we are lied to about "eternal hell." That is why I am here - to dispel the fear of Hell, and belief in its existence. Pardon me, but why do you think God allows a lot of bad things? Why does He tolerate idols such as Santa Claus and statues of dead saints? I could mention a LOT of evil/bad things, but they go on...and on.

Charlie, the Bible, at least in the original Hebrew and Greek, is the best preserved book we have from antiquity, and by a big margin. Yet, as I have said, your English Bible and mine are not, in the strictest sense, His Word. They are a translation.
So you are saying the English version is a translation that is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
 
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The gates of hell will not prevail against the Bride of Christ, while the gates of heaven are always open. That adds up to Universal Reconciliation. Come on in, the water's fine.

Lol, not bad, maybe a bit more refining in the fire?
 
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Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Do you actually think that is a reference to our translation of the Bible? (nope)

Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your unfailing love and your faithfulness,
for you have so exalted your solemn decree
that it surpasses your fame.
 
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Charlie24

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You are making the Bible something it was never intended to be.
Do you have a relationship with a book or with the God that the book tells us about?

What would become of you if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day and then sat down and said to God, "Okay, I'm ready to listen to you now. Talk to me.", what would happen? Would he leave you alone, or speak to you audibly for the first time? Would that be worth it, or would you prefer to keep your library instead?

The problem with Evangelicalism is that they have made a god out of a book. Don't get me wrong, I love the Bible, but I understand that it is not a replacement for my relationship with the living God. Ultimately, I don't need a Bible, all I need is Him.
Lord have mercy!

God's word is the only truth there is, and you don't need it?

I am appalled at your disrespect for God's Word, while calling yourself a Christian.

I am finished with this!
 
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