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BNR32FAN

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Thank you, but now I am also confused ;) .. because you wrote earlier,

So, how do you reconcile this (at least seeming) contradiction (that we are saved both by grace AND by our works)?

Thanks!

--David

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
.

It’s not the works that save but the motivation behind the works that save.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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renniks

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Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.


So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).
I think there will be a lot of people hearing this because they took all the glory for doing good instead of thanking God. People who had a fake godliness but have never come to God in true humility.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think there will be a lot of people hearing this because they took all the glory for doing good instead of thanking God. People who had a fake godliness but have never come to God in true humility.

Yes I agree, I think there are many, mostly on tv, that do fake healings and fake miracles in order to trick people into donating and their entire motivation is money not serving God. Jesus will be able to spot these people without any problem at all.
 
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timothyu

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I think there will be a lot of people hearing this because they took all the glory for doing good instead of thanking God.
Self vs others. Doing these things for their own reward rather than focusing instead on the needs of others. Selfish motive. Isn't there something about the right hand not knowing what the left does?
 
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BBAS 64

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I believe this message is very relevant to the situation in Matthew 7:21-27.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬


Good Day, BRN32FAN

John 15 makes my Joy Full

The Father is the vine dresser, and he abides in me and I in Him and without out Him I can do nothing at all.

Kind of irrelevant to the end of the Sermon on the Mount in Matt 7.... But a very good chapter of Scripture for sure!

In Him,

Bill
 
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BNR32FAN

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Good Day, BRN32FAN

John 15 makes my Joy Full

The Father is the vine dresser, and he abides in me and I in Him and without out Him I can do nothing at all.

Kind of irrelevant to the end of the Sermon on the Mount in Matt 7.... But a very good chapter of Scripture for sure!

In Him,

Bill

Well my point was that the ones mentioned in Matthew 7 were not abiding in Christ. They did not hear His words and act upon them.
 
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St_Worm2

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It’s not the works that save but the motivation behind the works that save. 1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-13‬‬‬
Hello BNR32FAN, so you are saying that our motivation to love (as God loves) is what saves us? That's an interesting thought. However, if we are not 'already' saved, where would a motivation like that come from?

One last question comes to mind too, if our motivation to love is what saves us, then why do we need the Savior? What do you believe that 1. Jesus' life and 2. His death save us from?

Thanks!

God bless you!

--David
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hello BNR32FAN, so you are saying that our motivation to love (as God loves) is what saves us? That's an interesting thought. However, if we are not 'already' saved, where would a motivation like that come from?

One last question comes to mind too, if our motivation to love is what saves us, then why do we need the Savior? What do you believe that 1. Jesus' life and 2. His death save us from?

Thanks!

God bless you!

--David

I’m not saying that we don’t need faith. I’m saying we need faith and love in order to receive salvation.
 
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St_Worm2

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I’m not saying that we don’t need faith. I’m saying we need faith and love in order to receive salvation.
Hello again BNR32FAN, while I don't disagree from a certain POV (as Calvin and Luther both said, "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"), how do the things that we do as Christians, things that accompany our salvation (that are the result of/the fruit of our salvation) save us?

Answering this question may prove to be helpful in this case, why do we need a Savior (and what does He saves us from)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - we are saved for good works, not by our good works, yes?

Ephesians 2
10 We are His workmanship/masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 
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redleghunter

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I’m not saying that we don’t need faith. I’m saying we need faith and love in order to receive salvation.
Does not God provide all our needs? (Philippians 4:19)

And of course this:

2 Peter 1: NASB

1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
 
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BBAS 64

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Well my point was that the ones mentioned in Matthew 7 were not abiding in Christ. They did not hear His words and act upon them.

Good Day, BNR32FAN

I guess in some secondary way that would be true...

The primary reason they did not abide was that Christ never knew them, see we are dependent of the Vine Dresser and Christ to do anything which would include "abiding".

So therefore their non-abiding was a direct effect of Christ not knowing them.

They did not hear because they could not, hearing is an effect of being of God.

John 8 wherefore do ye not know my speech? because ye are not able to hear my word..... he who is of God, the sayings of God he doth hear; because of this ye do not hear, because of God ye are not

Adopted by choice of God, given the gifts of Faith, and repentance equates to being "of" God.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BNR32FAN

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how do the things that we do as Christians, things that accompany our salvation (that are the result of/the fruit of our salvation) save us?

Answering this question may prove to be helpful in this case, why do we need a Savior (and what does He saves us from)?

These works don’t save us. Let me explain, we do these works in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. At no time have we lost our free will after receiving the Holy Spirit. We are no longer a slave to sin but we can definitely still choose to sin after receiving the Holy Spirit. Before receiving the Holy Spirit we had nothing but the desire to sin because we had absolutely no desire to serve God. So now that we have received the Holy Spirit we no longer desire to sin hence we are no longer a slave to it. The same goes for doing good works as far as our free will goes but it’s a bit different in the aspect of our desire. As Christians we still have the free will to choose to do good works or to choose to be lazy (lukewarm) and not do them. Now the difference in desire is even the natural man (unsaved, unrepentant man) can have a desire to do good works but they are tainted in God’s sight by his sin. So the only way our good works are pleasing in His sight is when we have been justified by Christ’s salvation which has removed the stain of our sin. Without Christ’s atonement we cannot please God and we cannot enter heaven. So Christ’s sacrifice is absolutely crucial to our salvation. No matter how many good works we do we cannot earn salvation. This is why accepting Christ as our Savior is of the utmost importance. Now after we have accepted Christ and been justified (cleansed of all sin and made right with God) this does not mean that we can never be made wrong with God afterwards. God has expectations of His children that can affect their salvation if they fail to meet these expectations. The Bible is full of these experience we must meet. Matthew 25:31-46 the goats had no love for others and their lack of works was evidence of that. James 2:14-16 gives a similar example. Matthew 7:21-27 and John 10:27-28 say we must hear and act upon Jesus’ words or hear and follow. 1 Corinthians 13 Paul says if I have the gift of prophecy and I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not Love I am nothing and have become a clanging cymbal. (Paraphrasing here) John 15 in my opinion really sets the bar and has the most conclusive evidence supporting conditional salvation. In verse 2 Jesus says The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. Then Jesus continues to express the importance of remaining in Him to His 11 faithful apostles even going so far as to explain why they must remain in Him (verses 4-5) and the consequences for failing to remain in Him in verse 6 which results in being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Now you have to realize that Jesus is only speaking to His 11 faithful apostles when He says this and He is speaking directly to them about them. He’s not talking about someone else. We know by what He said about these 11 men the very same day that they were true believers, that they were not of this world, and that they were devoted servants of God at this time. So if His 11 faithful apostles were not exempt from the possibility of losing their salvation even tho they were true believers and children of God then we know the same applies to all devoted children of God. Luke 13:6-9 gives a very similar message. Romans 11:17-23 is another prime example of loss of salvation. God has grafted these people into the “olive tree” (His Covenant) but if they are conceited or turn to unbelief they will be broken off from the olive tree. These people did not graft themselves into the olive tree God is the one who grafted them in. God doesn’t graft in false professors, He knows our heart, there’s no fooling Him. I can keep going on with more evidence but I don’t want to make this too long and drawn out but if you examine the scriptures that many people believe are supportive of eternal security it’s not hard to see that they’re not. I was once a firm believer in reformed theology but John 15 changed all that. It’s a long story but I hope this answers your questions friend. Have a very blessed day. :)
 
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Jipsah

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Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
If God declares to someone "I never knew you", dies that not imply that that the person has never in fact existed, that they have been erased from history?
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello @Jipsah, Jesus knows everyone in a certain sense, of course, but there are different kinds or ways of knowing people, and fortunately for us, in Greek and Hebrew, there are normally different words that express these differences.

For instance, if Jesus had used οἶδα [oida], which typically means to know in the sense of to "look, perceive, notice", instead of the word He did use, γινώσκω [ginosko], which generally refers to a knowing that is far more intimate or deep, IOW, it means to come to know and understand deeply, to become intimately acquainted with something or someone, etc. (the OT speaks of a men and women coming to "know" each other in this way in marriage, and γινώσκω was also used in the 1st Century by Hellenistic Jews as an idiom for sexual intercourse), then yes, what He said in v23 wouldn't have made much sense.

Here are a couple of examples of both Greek words used in context.

John 10
14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know/γινώσκω My own and My own know/γινώσκω Me,
15 even as the Father
knows/γινώσκω Me and I know/γινώσκω the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."


John 11
21 Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 “Even now I know/οἶδα that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know/οἶδα that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

--David

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew/γινώσκω you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Does not God provide all our needs? (Philippians 4:19)

And of course this:

2 Peter 1: NASB

1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

He provides all our needs to those who are willing to cooperate. He doesn’t force anyone to cooperate.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Good Day, BNR32FAN

I guess in some secondary way that would be true...

The primary reason they did not abide was that Christ never knew them, see we are dependent of the Vine Dresser and Christ to do anything which would include "abiding".

So therefore their non-abiding was a direct effect of Christ not knowing them.

They did not hear because they could not, hearing is an effect of being of God.

John 8 wherefore do ye not know my speech? because ye are not able to hear my word..... he who is of God, the sayings of God he doth hear; because of this ye do not hear, because of God ye are not

Adopted by choice of God, given the gifts of Faith, and repentance equates to being "of" God.

In Him,

Bill

But who will receive understanding?

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Beanieboy

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Interesting OP, but I understand it differently.
1 John 4
20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

So, my understanding of Christ’s answer to which is the greatest law, was to love God with all you heart soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

If your attitude is:“ I’m going to volunteer at a food shelf. Then I earned heaven” then the person does good works to get a spiritual paycheck. That’s works based salvation. You will not be working there bc you want to help people and have empathy. You will do it with the end goal in mind, you. You will expect these people you are helping to give you respect and thank you, because you are sacrificing good hoop time. You love how your dates swoon when you tell them about your selfless acts of kindness. It’s all about you, or you will do the work like a chore, and thinking God owes you heaven.

On the other hand, quoting that are best works are but filthy rags, a believer may try to justify doing nothing. He is already saved. And no matter how noble an act, it is a filthy rag, so why bother? As a result, he sees a homeless person, and tells them to get a job. He sees someone with cancer, and says, “that’s what you get for smoking.” And each time he treated others this way, he treated Christ this way. My theory is that we are not separated from God, but God is expressed in each one of us. Buddhists say, “Namaste” I bow to God within you.
If we, as Christians, were to treat everyone we interacted with as if we were talking to Christ, how differently we would treat one another.

But one cannot claim to love God but hate his brother. So, they won’t know God, because they did not love.

Inbetween is the answer.
I had a mystical experience once where God spoke. The understanding he made clear was: We do good, he loves us. We do bad, he loves us. He loves us regardless of our sins, because his love is unconditional. He then showed me that sll these years, he had been offering his love. Out of shame, guilt, family upbringing, I believed myself unworthy, so never accepted it. He asked simply one thing: to accept his love. Then, it was my choice of what to do after that.

Really experiencing God’s love,I wanted to show unconditional love to others. Feeling forgiven, I forgave others as a way of saying thank you.

And the random acts of kindness were fruit of the tree. And they become so second nature, that you don’t think of yourself as earning Heaven Points, of deserving Heaven or Good fortune on earth, If love is in your heart, you will help those in need, and the acts of kindness change your heart.

One poster, claiming I was willfully disobeying God, wanted to know how I was going to respond to God when he said, “why do you deserve the Kingdom?”


I said. I don’t, Lord” and smile. I am allowed in through grace. He does not want us to love and serve others out of obligation, what’s in it for you, or with ulterior motive.

Rather. It becomes something that is common to your behavior so as you don’t even think much about it.

But the works with be the fruit of the love.

Now, I differ who he is referring to. At time he told the story, the Pharisees, teachers of the Law, hated Christ, because he undermined their authority. Simon, being judgemrntal of both the woman washing Christ’s feet and judging Christ for allowing her pressence, made Simon admit he showed less love than she.

What he was referring to,then were the Pharisees, who made a show of their religion to other people. Rather than love, they showed no mercy, and looked upon others in condemnation. They strained a gnat (focused on minor laws, burdening people rather than edifying) and swallowed a camel (ignored love, forgiveness, kindness, mercy) granted to them by God.
The Pharisee would say, “Didn’t I learn, and preach the Scriptures?” And yet, Jesus constantly rebuked them for their lack of understand, their priorities, the hardness of their hearts.

So, I would imagine that Christians that lack love, focus on the sins of others, but ignore or forgive their own, quite possibly, do not know Christ.

It makes you think. Take modern conservative Christianity. One would think the message of the Gospel is “stop sinning”, and “Don’t be gay.” Homosexuality and abortion are talked about a lot.

If one doesn’t have same-sex attraction, no one is going to grill you on whether a boyfriend/girlfriend are having sex. No one is going to check your phone/computer history to see if you watch porn.
The focus is on other people, who aren’t allowed. in the church, and so, easy targets. They are slandered, and not there to defend themselves. And the justify the mistreatment of these targets by dehumanizing them, telling people they are a threat, and misusing the bible.

And only the HS can move their heart enough to show that they neither serve nor know God, and often, work directly against him, because if you try, your words fall on deaf ears, as they believe their beliefs to be that of God, and all others are hellbound.

In a way, they have made themselves God, demanding others follow, even sitting at God’s right hand in Judgement if not on the throne itself.
 
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But who will receive understanding?

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬


Good Day, BNR32

In order to understand you must first hear, if you are unable to hear how can you understand?

IN Him,

Bill
 
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BNR32FAN

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Good Day, BNR32

In order to understand you must first hear, if you are unable to hear how can you understand?

IN Him,

Bill

“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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brinny

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Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.


So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).
Perhaps it would be edifying to delve in to what "works" are, exactly?

Are "good deeds" works?

Is lying prostrate before the Lord, works?

Is donating to organizations that help those who need help, works?

This might be a good starting point, as i fear there might be much mis-understanding of what "works" are, exactly.

Interesting thread, by the way. Thank you for starting it.
 
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