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Featured "I never knew you'

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Zachm531, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    Matthew 7:21-23
    Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

    Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

    I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

    These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

    The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.


    So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

    And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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  2. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Jas 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    [​IMG]2Pe 3:15 - and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved

    2Pe 3:16 - as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

    See Matthew 25.
     
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  3. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    I don't see the words saved or salvation is James 2:24 , could you point that out to me? Also, show me how James 2:24 is to be reconciled with Galatians, Ephesians and Romans which all teach salvation by faith.
     
  4. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    We enter in to salvation by faith alone and by grace alone. It is not a reward for anything we may have done previously, either good or bad, see Ephesians 2. It is our works afterwards that justify us and keep us in God's grace, see James, and others.

    That is now and always has been the gospel. It has never changed.
     
  5. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The great debate, works v grace. You make a good point about pseudo-Christian cults. When I come to Lord Jesus as I do each day, my focus is on what He has done, not my own "good works". Those who seek to establish their own righteousness miss the point of grace.
     
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  6. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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  7. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Man is about self. God is about others. Focus on your own salvation... that's self. Focus on the needs of others. That is God's will.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  8. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God asked me a question a few years ago. He said, "What is your righteousness?" I thought for a moment. "The best I can do," I replied. Immediately I remembered the word that my righteousness is filthy rags in God's sight. So the best I can do is filthy rags as far as God is concerned. Works are the outworking of the Life of Christ within us, not an attempt to please God and get in His good books. Lord Jesus said that we would be known by our fruit. Fruit grows naturally from the tree. We are called to bear fruit, not to manufacture it.
     
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  9. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    Not sure i follow what youre saying
     
  10. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello HTacianas, it seems to me that if we are only ~first~ saved by grace, but that our salvation then rests upon the doing good works from that point on, then none are actually saved by God's grace, which is His UN-merited favor towards us (well, except for those who die immediately after God saves them, I suppose).

    Romans 11
    6 If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    --David

    Romans 4
    4 To the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
    5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

    .
     
  11. Unsavable

    Unsavable New Member

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    There are clearly people and churches who embrace the morality of the fallen world because they are of the world. They lead others to death with false doctrines and false promises. They substitute acceptance for love and truth for pandering. They are obvious to those whose eyes are open.

    They will have a lot to answer for. It will sound something like this; "but but but but but but but..."

    This topic is of especial interest to me as I fall into another category. A person who wants to do good, and knows the difference, but can't. Hence my screen name. Paul struggled so perhaps there is some hope. I'm not exactly sure how that works. I have heard so many contradictory opinions on the subject that I have absolutely no idea.
     
  12. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    You are correct.
     
  13. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    A simple explanation as to why He would say He 'never knew you'.
     
  14. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    You are here so by your own choice you are savable, not by anyone here but of your own accord. :) Otherwise you wouldn't bother.
     
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  15. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Agree. I was talking to a JW about the divinity of Lord Jesus. He said he knew that Jesus is not God but acknowledged that He will be the King and Lord of Earth. But this person does not believe Jesus is God or that the Holy Spirit is an indwelling person within us.
     
  16. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    Read Romans and Galatians my man
     
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  17. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Thank you, but now I am also confused ;) .. because you wrote earlier,
    So, how do you reconcile this (at least seeming) contradiction (that we are saved both by grace AND by our works)?

    Thanks!

    --David

    Romans 11
    6 If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
    .
     
  18. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    “Unless you believe that I AM(in greek: ego eimi), you will die in your sins”
    -Jesus
    John 8:24

    Exodus 3:14
     
  19. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anything about JW's other than their daughters were not allowed to befriend the rest of us back in high school. Outcasts by their own hand as if the rest of us weren't a big enough problem.

    But consider that while here, Jesus did nothing of His own will but only the will of the Father. As a result He became King of a Kingdom created by and come down from Heaven and the Father. A Kingdom where Jesus will reign but the Father will also dwell and Jesus will be the conduit between the Father and the inhabitants of the Kingdom. Meanwhile the HS (a guiding wind according to the Jews) was sent by Jesus to help guide those on the path to the Kingdom, so as to hopefully not fall by the wayside once having rejected the world and ways of mankind.

    So ... how does that compare to what you said?
     
  20. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    We *enter into* salvation by grace through faith. We *remain* in that salvation based on our conduct. Now, after we enter into salvation do we continue to sin, or are we obedient?

    Rom 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

    And even more direct:

    Heb 10:26 - For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    Heb 10:27 - but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
     
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