"I never knew you'

[timothyu]

Where does Jesus dying for our sins and rising Dom the dead factor into all of this?

No voluntarily dying as a result of our sins, then no remaining loyal to the will of the Father rather than His own. Thus no King for the Kingdom of God. But He did finish what was expected of Him. Thus He could be resurrected as the first of the Kingdom and fulfill His mission as King, a conduit between mankind and the Father. We are not expected to be Kings and equate what Jesus did, but each will receive our reward according to how we love all as self, but we must first abandon loyalty to the world made in man's image for that of the Kingdom. They operate on opposing principles.

 

[Zachm531]

Another "go see it", with no explanation of how it backs your claim. "The entire bible states it", is first, not true, not to mention, that's pretty vague, don't you think.

Specifically

Its not vague. In order to understand our beliefs we dont cherry pick scripture, we read it as a whole. And yes the “go read the original post” comments is because your comments are answered in the first post.... if you would have read it before commenting on the thread 2/4 of your questions wouldve been answered.

 

[Matt5]

The entire system of man is anti-Christ in principle. Why not address the whole?

Not sure but I suspect they get to die. How can Jesus set up the kingdom of heaven on Earth with all those people who joined team Satan - Islam?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Honest/well meaning advice to some OSAS defenders here.

Its not vague. In order to understand our beliefs we dont cherry pick scripture, we read it as a whole. And yes the “go read the original post” comments is because your comments are answered in the first post.... if you would have read it before commenting on the thread 2/4 of your questions wouldve been answered.

The following is nothing more than something to help you, and others who do the same, to be credible because as it is, you're giving us no reason at all to believe you. I think there is a reason for that but that's for another post, and you still just barwelu have the benefit of doubt

You completely miss the point, it's not "cherry picking" for you to show us the exact scripture that proves your point and why it does so. For example, If I wanted to prove it takes something other than faith to gets us to heaven, I would quote a specific scripture such as the "faith without works is dead" or, it takes both "faith and works" verses. Then I might follow through and ask you the value of "dead faith"? Or can we get to heaven with only faith?

And of course that always brings on no answer, then anger, but you all need to ask yourselves what you are really angry about when all we did was state verifiable fact. It makes you angry because it's solid proof, just as others have offered, and shooting the messengers with whatever nonsense you can think of will follow That is not a defense, and it only serves to make it look like you have none.

Seems to me you are constantly depending on us seeing what you do by saying/thinking "Go here, read it all, and come to the same conclusion I do" as an excuse. I personally think you are hiding behind that because you can't present specific scripture to make your case, so you pretend "it's in there", when it is not.

On your lack of answering questions directly, as well as the general "proof" you are presenting, instead of actual proof/evidence, you create confusion and simply say "The answer is here among all this" never giving any real answer at all. And don't get me wrong, it isn't just you, Zach, it's the same with others here, always has been. I'm telling you all, that is far from a defense, and the confusion I mentioned is your own in thinking what you do is a defense, you're basically depending on nothing to make your point. As far as credibility, I think you'd be better off not to post at all because what you do post/how you act, tells some of us a story....that you have no real defense.

I'd suggest you all actually defend your "Faith Only" or not.

Then one might say we need to do the same thing/practice what you preach, while it's absolutely clear we have defended our end of this when you all shy away from questioning/a question completely. You stop dead at the question because you know it proves you wrong, and after enough of that, I see it as dead proof you get it but remain in denial. You treat the truth like like a plague, and like a plague is scary, you treat it as such because it threatens to take away easy salvation.

And that my friends is no confusing/evasive "go see this", it's concrete fact that can be verified right here on this thread and others, over and over again.

 

[Zachm531]

Honest/well meaning advice to some OSAS defenders here.



The following is nothing more than something to help you, and others who do the same, to be credible because as it is, you're giving us no reason at all to believe you. I think there is a reason for that but that's for another post, and you still just barwelu have the benefit of doubt

You completely miss the point, it's not "cherry picking" for you to show us the exact scripture that proves your point and why it does so. For example, If I wanted to prove it takes something other than faith to gets us to heaven, I would quote a specific scripture such as the "faith without works is dead" or, it takes both "faith and works" verses. Then I might follow through and ask you the value of "dead faith"? Or can we get to heaven with only faith?

And of course that always brings on no answer, then anger, but you all need to ask yourselves what you are really angry about when all we did was state verifiable fact. It makes you angry because it's solid proof, just as others have offered, and shooting the messengers with whatever nonsense you can think of will follow That is not a defense, and it only serves to make it look like you have none.

Seems to me you are constantly depending on us seeing what you do by saying/thinking "Go here, read it all, and come to the same conclusion I do" as an excuse. I personally think you are hiding behind that because you can't present specific scripture to make your case, so you pretend "it's in there", when it is not.

On your lack of answering questions directly, as well as the general "proof" you are presenting, instead of actual proof/evidence, you create confusion and simply say "The answer is here among all this" never giving any real answer at all. And don't get me wrong, it isn't just you, Zach, it's the same with others here, always has been. I'm telling you all, that is far from a defense, and the confusion I mentioned is your own in thinking what you do is a defense, you're basically depending on nothing to make your point. As far as credibility, I think you'd be better off not to post at all because what you do post/how you act, tells some of us a story....that you have no real defense.

I'd suggest you all actually defend your "Faith Only" or not.

Then one might say we need to do the same thing/practice what you preach, while it's absolutely clear we have defended our end of this when you all shy away from questioning/a question completely. You stop dead at the question because you know it proves you wrong, and after enough of that, I see it as dead proof you get it but remain in denial. You treat the truth like like a plague, and like a plague is scary, you treat it as such because it threatens to take away easy salvation.

And that my friends is no confusing/evasive "go see this", it's concrete fact that can be verified right here on this thread and others, over and over again.

*Facepalm*
When your whole theology is based off of two verses talking about a faithful life and not salvation. I’ll go find as many verses as i can stating that SALVATION is by faith alone. Show me just 1 where it says you are saved by works

 

[Zachm531]

Honest/well meaning advice to some OSAS defenders here.



The following is nothing more than something to help you, and others who do the same, to be credible because as it is, you're giving us no reason at all to believe you. I think there is a reason for that but that's for another post, and you still just barwelu have the benefit of doubt

You completely miss the point, it's not "cherry picking" for you to show us the exact scripture that proves your point and why it does so. For example, If I wanted to prove it takes something other than faith to gets us to heaven, I would quote a specific scripture such as the "faith without works is dead" or, it takes both "faith and works" verses. Then I might follow through and ask you the value of "dead faith"? Or can we get to heaven with only faith?

And of course that always brings on no answer, then anger, but you all need to ask yourselves what you are really angry about when all we did was state verifiable fact. It makes you angry because it's solid proof, just as others have offered, and shooting the messengers with whatever nonsense you can think of will follow That is not a defense, and it only serves to make it look like you have none.

Seems to me you are constantly depending on us seeing what you do by saying/thinking "Go here, read it all, and come to the same conclusion I do" as an excuse. I personally think you are hiding behind that because you can't present specific scripture to make your case, so you pretend "it's in there", when it is not.

On your lack of answering questions directly, as well as the general "proof" you are presenting, instead of actual proof/evidence, you create confusion and simply say "The answer is here among all this" never giving any real answer at all. And don't get me wrong, it isn't just you, Zach, it's the same with others here, always has been. I'm telling you all, that is far from a defense, and the confusion I mentioned is your own in thinking what you do is a defense, you're basically depending on nothing to make your point. As far as credibility, I think you'd be better off not to post at all because what you do post/how you act, tells some of us a story....that you have no real defense.

I'd suggest you all actually defend your "Faith Only" or not.

Then one might say we need to do the same thing/practice what you preach, while it's absolutely clear we have defended our end of this when you all shy away from questioning/a question completely. You stop dead at the question because you know it proves you wrong, and after enough of that, I see it as dead proof you get it but remain in denial. You treat the truth like like a plague, and like a plague is scary, you treat it as such because it threatens to take away easy salvation.

And that my friends is no confusing/evasive "go see this", it's concrete fact that can be verified right here on this thread and others, over and over again.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.


Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law


John 6:28-29 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.


John 3:16 , Acts 16:30-31 , 2 Timothy 1:9 , Acts 2:21 , Romans 10:10 , Titus 2:11-12 , Mark 16:16 , Hebrews 9:28 , Romans 1:16

Shall I keep going?
You wont find one verse that that says we are saved, have salvation or are justified in Gods sight with our works

 

[Kenny'sID]

*Facepalm*
When your whole theology is based off of two verses talking about a faithful life and not salvation. I’ll go find as many verses as i can stating that SALVATION is by faith alone. Show me just 1 where it says you are saved by works

2 verses? I guess you're so far down on the losing end of this, deception is now becoming an absolute must.

That is about as far from the truth as it can be....why would you stoop to that level?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Good start, now lest see how your view of that holds up.

First, and so we are clear, is that faith mentioned there, faith in Christ, and what he stands for, his teachings and such? And if not, what is it to you?

 

[Zachm531]

Good start, now lest see how your view of that holds up.

First, and so we are clear, is that faith mentioned there, faith in Christ, and what he stands for, his teachings and such? And if not, what is it to you?

Faith of his work on the cross and his atonement for our sin. Faith in his perfect life born of a virgin, sinless, crucified, bore my sins, died was buried and resurrected. Faith that He has completed everything for me.
“When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭

 

[Kenny'sID]

Faith that He has completed everything for me.

"everything for me", I see.

Then you are saying from this part of my question....

First, and so we are clear, is that faith mentioned there, faith in Christ, and what he stands for, his teachings and such?

....that you need not be concerned about his teachings, that those are not included in your "faith" in Christ? See you didn't agree with that so I can only assume that has no part in your faith, and I just need to verify that. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Robin Mauro]

They think they have to give up their 'riches' in order to do so, but it is a simple matter of simply sharing in times of need where one would appreciate the same in a similar situation. The pursuit of self interest can be balanced out with interest in others. The knowledge of good and evil became our downfall as the middle narrow road is often overlooked in favour of one or another. Look at those rich who supported Jesus and His Apostles. They were in the middle and were not condemned.

Yes, but this is a fine line because the Word says some very harsh things to the rich...your riches have corrupted you, he has sent the rich away empty (Mary's prayer)...there are many like these. And I never hear this preached on, and when these verses do come up, pastors usually white-wash them and make light of them with sayings like it's okay to be rich, just not ro love money, but the Bible is much harsher than that, as in the story of Lazarus where the rich man went to a place of torment. Fortunately, God gave us guidelines about money with tithes and offerings. But I am still not sure if one has a million dollars and gives $100,000 if that is enough, because they still have $900,000, and we are called to be willing to lay everything down for Jesus, even our lives.
We've just got to keep compassion for each other and be always willing to give as we are able, rather than judge.
I wish churches, which sit empty most of the week, would open their doors and hearts to those without homes....a little off topic, but not really, because our lives should be about doing all we can, not that the giver is harmed by giving, but that there be an equality, as Paul said. So when teachers put down social justice, I think they haven't read their Bibles, or just do not care about the suffering of others, which is anathema to love and all the Bible teaches.

 

[Zachm531]

"everything for me", I see.

Then you are saying from this part of my question....




....that you need not be concerned about his teachings, that those are not included in your "faith" in Christ? See you didn't agree with that so I can only assume that has no part in your faith, and I just need to verify that. Thanks for your patience.

Ephesians 2:10
Of course its a part of my walk with Christ BUT its not included in my salvation. This is a process called sanctification and James talks about it in chapter 2. We are called to live as Christ lives and to obey his commandments and teachings. We do this to spiritually mature and be a good witness for Christ. But the Bible is clear
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
This is not to say that we DO NOT walk in obedience or that we SHOULD NOT. We will be judged by our works by man and more importantly by God
Matthew 12:36 - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The greatest will be the lowest and the lowest the greatest. We will truly be judged by our works but our salvation does not depend on it. There is only one work we need to complete:
John 6:28-29 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

 

[timothyu]

Yes, but this is a fine line because the Word says some very harsh things to the rich...your riches have corrupted you,

Of course. There is never balance because of choice and greed is a powerful motivator. God has no problem seeing that our obsession with shiny things pales in comparison to loving all as self. As for tithes etc., forced choice is not the way of God.

 

[ARBITER01]

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying.

It's right in the passage you quoted, and somewhat specific,..

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; “depart from Me, the ones working lawlessness!”

They were doing their own will, not GOD's. They were following their own desires and ideas in their mind for their own personal credit and glory instead of following Jesus, and He considers that lawlessness.

It was right there in the text friend.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Ephesians 2:10
Of course its a part of my faith BUT its not included in my salvation. This is a process called sanctification and James talks about it in chapter 2. We are called to live as Christ lives and to obey his commandments and teachings. We do this to spiritually mature and be a good witness for Christ. But the Bible is clear
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
This is not to say that we DO NOT walk in obedience or that we SHOULD NOT. We will be judged by our works by man and more importantly by God
Matthew 12:36 - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The greatest will be the lowest and the lowest the greatest. We will truly be judged by our works but our salvation does not depend on it. There is only one work we need to complete:
John 6:28-29 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

Was there an answer to the question in there someplace or was it just as I expected?

 

[Zachm531]

Was there an answer to the question in there someplace or was it just as I expected?

Its in the first sentence man, it was good talking to you See ya around

 

[Kenny'sID]

Ephesians 2:10
Of course its a part of my faith BUT its not included in my salvation.

But your faith is the ONLY thing that your salvation requires.

And here I was certain your faith is all you needed for salvation but now you are saying you don't even need that?

Did you even see what you just said. We know your faith is all you need for salvation (or so you say), and since doing as Christ said is, by your own admission part of that faith that you need for salvation, essentially you are saying you don't need your faith for salvation.

Oh my!

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

I never knew you means Jesus never did and had no intention of being in a relationship with these people.... His choice no matter what they had done or attributed to Him.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.


So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

None of the religions you mentioned existed back then. If you continue to read Jesus’ message He makes it clear that those who hear His words and ACT on them are building on a solid foundation.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Jesus begins verse 24 with the word “Therefore” indicating that He is expounding on His previous statement.

We are justified (made right with God) by faith, just because we have been made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t be made wrong with Him afterwards regardless of what we do. I can have faith that Jesus Christ will forgive all my sins, go on a wild killing spree, and be killed in the process and I would not receive salvation just because I was justified by my faith. Love is also a requirement of salvation. Paul said if I have all faith so as to move mountains but I don’t have love, I am nothing. Jesus emphasized the necessity of love throughout His ministry. John 15 is one very strong example. Matthew 25:41-46 is another more subtle example but if you notice the reason He gave for condemning the goats, the works He listed that they did not do were all works as a result of love. Personally I don’t think it was the absence of the works that condemned them but the absence of love that resulted in the absence of good works was the root of the cause.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day, All

I never knew you means Jesus never did and had no intention of being in a relationship with these people.... His choice no matter what they had done or attributed to Him.

In Him,

Bill

I believe this message is very relevant to the situation in Matthew 7:21-27.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬