Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[Charlie24]

The offer puts God in a full nelson to pay what's due to any who accept the offer....if there were one.

We don't work to get saved, we work because we are saved.

Some work more than others but God does not fire them.

Your salvation is from the legalism view not from grace.

But you constantly tell us we are doing what you have just proved you are doing.

 

[BobRyan]

>Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism

I never seek to discus the issue formally, but frequently when evangelizing I come across someone who has tried to have faith but thinks he has failed, and who then concludes he simply is not of the "elect" and is therefore hopelessly forever without God. Quite often this is attended by the fear, or even the strong belief, that the person has committed the unforgivable sin and is beyond redemption, and by all the emotional and mental illness that goes with that. Most of the work then is to convince him that God wants him saved, that accepting the Free Gift of salvation is a choice, just a decision away.

This is almost always done without mentioning the name Arminianism; once in a while I will mention Calvinism because the term is more widely recognized. In all this I see Calvinism as a distortion of the Gospel offer and of God's character, one that holds many poor souls in bondage.

Indeed - the issue is faced/encountered all the time -- but people are just not slapping those labels on it.

 

[Dave L]

We don't work to get saved, we work because we are saved.

Some work more than others but God does not fire them.

Your salvation is from the legalism view not from grace.

But you constantly tell us we are doing what you have just proved you are doing.

I'm a Calvinist. I'm describing the Arminian gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

With Calvinism you see your faith as proof God saved you. You could not believe otherwise.

My understanding is that in classic 3 and 5 point Calvinism if it turns out that you "fail to persevere" 10 years from today.. then any "proof" you thought you had that you are saved today ... is deleted. John MacArthur and Chuck Swindoll would be examples of people teaching that -

 

[BobRyan]

The offer puts God in a full nelson to pay what's due to any who accept the offer....if there were one.

??? what is that???

 

[BobRyan]

There are so many different beliefs in Calvinism that you don't know which one you are speaking to.

Lately, the ones I have seen believe that the "whosoever will" crowd are saved by a works salvation and therefore are not saved. I guess they base this on since you chose to be saved in God's mercy, you have committed a work in doing so, God has been denied His glory of salvation.

This of course if absurd. But another will say oh no, it's not like that, it's this way.

1. Agreed that there is the 3,4,5 point Calvinist versions plus some variations on that.
2. I also agree that it is sometimes hard to find Calvinists with an accurate definition of what the Arminian position is. I prefer to get the definition for the Arminian POV - from Arminians.

I prefer the "definition by Bible text" that we see in the OP but as always a good analogy can be helpful.

 

[BobRyan]

A job offer is an invitation for a potential employee, whether she has applied for a job or not, to become an employee in your organization. The job offer contains the details of your employment offer.

I like that analogy. A job offer to fly a space shuttle is not a claim that the person who is flying it - already flew other shuttles or can built their own space shuttle or has a degree in engineering etc. And the training will be given to that person once they accept.

And of course "accepting" is possible due to the supernatural work of God in John 12:32 drawing all mankind.

It generally sketches out the terms and conditions under which the employment is offered to the prospective employee. This includes salary, benefits, job responsibilities, and the reporting manager’s name and title.

Indeed and the person can be terminated for shooting employees or blowing up the main office or driving a truck through the front door etc.

So "to some extent" at least I think your analogy works

 

[Charlie24]

I'm a Calvinist. I'm describing the Arminian gospel.

Yes, and I'm saying that the Calvinist view cannot trust in Grace when they believe God will not offer His Grace to some. They have misunderstood Grace.

There is only one other view that can be held. That is legalism.

 

[BobRyan]

The unbeliever has chosen the gospel to be foolishness.
.

The unbeliever is supernaturally drawn John 12:32 to God such that their own sinful nature is no longer the only actor/motivator and their mind is opened to the Gospel.

The unbeliever has the Holy Spirit supernaturally and effectively "convicting him of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, and I'm saying that the Calvinist view cannot trust in Grace when they believe God will not offer His Grace to some. They have misunderstood Grace.

There is only one other view that can be held. That is legalism.

Grace is only for the elect.

 

[BobRyan]

I was hoping to see more "Here is this key point of Calvinism - in scripture" posted by Calvinists at this point.

 

[Emsmom1]

>Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism

I never seek to discus the issue formally, but frequently when evangelizing I come across someone who has tried to have faith but thinks he has failed, and who then concludes he simply is not of the "elect" and is therefore hopelessly forever without God. Quite often this is attended by the fear, or even the strong belief, that the person has committed the unforgivable sin and is beyond redemption, and by all the emotional and mental illness that goes with that. Most of the work then is to convince him that God wants him saved, that accepting the Free Gift of salvation is a choice, just a decision away.

This is almost always done without mentioning the name Arminianism; once in a while I will mention Calvinism because the term is more widely recognized. In all this I see Calvinism as a distortion of the Gospel offer and of God's character, one that holds many poor souls in bondage.

What do Calvinists think about this? From what I understand, Calvinism teaches that left to our own devices, we would not even attempt to come to God on our own (given total depravity, I think?). But there are people, even on Christian Forums, who WANT to believe, who WANT to have faith-but can't seem to get there.

 

[marineimaging]

With Calvinism you see your faith as proof God saved you. You could not believe otherwise. With Arminianism you see the gospel as a job offer. And believe God will owe you salvation when you accept the offer and go to work. = two different gospels.

Dave, I must disagree with your statement. I am of the Armenian persuasion and not one person I know of in any of my circles thinks that God OWES any man His blessing of salvation. It is offered in the only way it can be placed before mankind, as a gift. And it is a gift offered to all humans because justice demands it to be so. Anything other than a gift would be ludicrous because no man would ever be able to stand up to the measure of our God in Heaven. It is not by our deeds or works, but by His Grace through Jesus Christ that we are saved. It would seem that your notion of a quid pro quo would seem to dismiss the work of the Holy Spirit to be evident in our lives upon accepting Christ. I do admit that false prosperity preachers might suggest that, but true believers don't follow that idea one bit.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I must disagree with your statement. I am of the Armenian persuasion and not one person I know of in any of my circles thinks that God OWES any man His blessing of salvation. It is offered in the only way it can be placed before mankind, as a gift. And it is a gift offered to all humans because justice demands it to be so. Anything other than a gift would be ludicrous because no man would ever be able to stand up to the measure of our God in Heaven. It is not by our deeds or works, but by His Grace through Jesus Christ that we are saved. It would seem that your notion of a quid pro quo would seem to dismiss the work of the Holy Spirit to be evident in our lives upon accepting Christ. I do admit that false prosperity preachers might suggest that, but true believers don't follow that idea one bit.

You still trust in your faith to save you.

 

[Dave L]

What do Calvinists think about this? From what I understand, Calvinism teaches that left to our own devices, we would not even attempt to come to God on our own (given total depravity, I think?). But there are people, even on Christian Forums, who WANT to believe, who WANT to have faith-but can't seem to get there.

3/4 of the seed washed out. Only the good soil brought endurance.

 

[Charlie24]

Grace is only for the elect.

Grace is offered to everyone. You believe grace is not offered to some God has chosen to hid it from. That is a perverted view of grace. It makes God a liar.

That is the same as the Jew who says I am God's chosen therefore I have salvation and the Gentiles are dogs with no hope of salvation.

How is your legalism any different from that of the Jew?

 

[Dave L]

Grace is offered to everyone. You believe grace is not offered to some God has chosen to hid it from. That is a perverted view of grace. It makes God a liar.

That is the same as the Jew who says I am God's chosen therefore I have salvation and the Gentiles are dogs with no hope of salvation.

How is your legalism any different from that of the Jew?

Offer = job offer = not the gospel

 

[Charlie24]

Offer = job offer = not the gospel

No Dave. How are you different from the Jew who claims superiority.

 

[Dave L]

No Dave. How are you different from the Jew who claims superiority.

I don't. Those who accept job offers and earn salvation like the Jews...do.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't. Those who accept job offers and earn salvation like the Jews...do.

Never heard anyone use this term but you. Kinda picked that one didn't you?

The Calvinist is the same as the Jew, they do not know the grace of God. They claim to know it but don't. That's why they are the mighty Calvinists, they are the chosen of God, the same as the Jews claim.