You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[Hammster]

Which “YOU” in these verses are not referring to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles?

Read what you quoted.

 

[Hammster]

Every single time He says the word “YOU” He is referring to His 11 faithful apostles. Not once does He say the word “YOU” in reference to someone else who has s not currently present with Him. I’m sure you can see that but are reluctant to admit it. Why is that?

I am reluctant because I think it applies to more than just those 11.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lol I’m curious how some hold to both conditional and unconditional election. They’re completely opposing doctrines.

Example is 1 Peter 1:1-2. God elects based on His foreknowledge (or future knowledge), which implies that God elects us based on what He knows we will do in the future. An excellent example of an election to reprobation based on conditions within the individual can be found in Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. God knows (in His foreknowledge or future knowledge) that there will be those who will worship the beast in the future. God says in His Word in these two verses that these individuals never had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. In other words, their sin was so bad, that they never were even saved by what God would know what they were going to do. I believe everyone else had their names written in the book of life by Christ's sacrifice. This is why when a baby dies, they go to Heaven. Sin is what separates a person from God, and whereby a person's name can be blotted out of the book of life. So when a baby grows up and learns of the knowledge of good and evil (like Adam and Eve), they will then die spiritually, and they need a rebirth by Jesus Christ. So election is not unconditional as Calvinists claim. God is merely one step ahead of us. This does not mean we do not have libertarian free will to choose God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Read what you quoted.

What about it? Every time Jesus said the word you in John 15 He is referring to His 11 faithful apostles NOT Judas. Judas was not present for this message. So the implications are that His faithful 11 apostles who were currently in Christ at the time were capable of falling away from Him otherwise He wouldn’t have told them to abide in Him in verse 4. He also wouldn’t have said “so neither can you UNLESS you abide in Me” or “IF you abide in Me and My words abide in you”. He wouldn’t have said this if they were incapable of failing to abide in Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am reluctant because I think it applies to more than just those 11.

That s not the point, the point is that what He is saying to them does apply to them. They were in Christ and they must continue to remain in Christ to receive salvation. Sure it applies to all of us but the point is that His 11 faithful apostles who were in Christ at that time were not excluded from the message.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Example is 1 Peter 1:1-2. God elects based on His foreknowledge (or future knowledge), which implies that God elects us based on what He knows we will do in the future. An excellent example of an election to reprobation based on conditions within the individual can be found in Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. God knows (in His foreknowledge or future knowledge) that there will be those who will worship the beast in the future. God says in His Word in these two verses that these individuals never had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. In other words, their sin was so bad, that they never were even saved by what God would know what they were going to do. I believe everyone else had their names written in the book of life by Christ's sacrifice. This is why when a baby dies, they go to Heaven. Sin is what separates a person from God, and whereby a person's name can be blotted out of the book of life. So when a baby grows up and learns of the knowledge of good and evil (like Adam and Eve), they will then die spiritually, and they need a rebirth by Jesus Christ. So election is not unconditional as Calvinists claim. God is merely one step ahead of us. This does not mean we do not have libertarian free will to choose God.

But that’s still not unconditional election because it’s based on what we will choose. That’s simply conditional election.

 

[Hammster]

That s not the point, the point is that what He is saying to them does apply to them. They were in Christ and they must continue to remain in Christ to receive salvation. Sure it applies to all of us but the point is that His 11 faithful apostles who were in Christ at that time were not excluded from the message.

So “you” could be a generic use.

Is there any indication that those cast out ever bore fruit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So “you” could be a generic use.

Is there any indication that those cast out ever bore fruit?

How could the word “you” when speaking directly to a group of people be a “generic use”? That’s ridiculous. Are you trying to say that Jesus wasn’t actually speaking about them but instead He was speaking about someone else when He specifically said the word “YOU” like 15 times in the first 20 verses?!! Now your allowing your theology to dictate the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to dictate your theology. The scriptures define the doctrine not the other way around.

 

[Hammster]

How could the word “you” when speaking directly to a group of people be a “generic use”? That’s ridiculous. Are you trying to say that Jesus wasn’t actually speaking about them but instead He was speaking about someone else when He specifically said the word “YOU” like 15 times in the first 20 verses?!! Now your allowing your theology to dictate the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to dictate your theology. The scriptures define the doctrine not the other way around.

It either has to be used in a generic sense, or it was only for the 11.

Is there any indication that those cast out ever bore fruit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It either has to be used in a generic sense, or it was only for the 11.

Is there any indication that those cast out ever bore fruit?

Not sure if those who were cast out ever bore any fruit. Luke 13 indicates that those who are justified are given an opportunity to bear fruit and after some time if they do not they are cut off.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

It either has to be used in a generic sense, or it was only for the 11.

Is there any indication that those cast out ever bore fruit?

It doesn’t matter if it’s generic or not. The only thing that matters is that what He said about abiding in Him applies to His 11 faithful apostles. We know for a fact that they were undoubtedly believers who had faith and if they were capable of failing to abide in Christ resulting in loss of salvation then we know that everyone is also in the same situation. It still doesn’t change the implications of what Jesus said to the faithful 11.

 

[Hammster]

Not sure if those who were cast out ever bore any fruit. Luke 13 indicates that those who are justified are given an opportunity to bear fruit and after some time if they do not they are cut off.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

That’s not in John 15. That’s what we are talking about.

 

[Hammster]

It doesn’t matter if it’s generic or not. The only thing that matters is that what He said about abiding in Him applies to His 11 faithful apostles. We know for a fact that they were undoubtedly believers who had faith and if they were capable of failing to abide in Christ resulting in loss of salvation then we know that everyone is also in the same situation. It still doesn’t change the implications of what Jesus said to the faithful 11.

Your belief in that does not equal facts. The fact is that Christ will lose none that the Father gives Him. The fact is that the Father will not disown His children. The fact is that the seal of the Spirit cannot be broken.

So stating that one can lose salvation pits the members of the Trinity against each other.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That’s not in John 15. That’s what we are talking about.

Luke 13 gives a similar message. The tree that doesn’t bear fruit is cut down. It’s just a different analogy.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your belief in that does not equal facts. The fact is that Christ will lose none that the Father gives Him. The fact is that the Father will not disown His children. The fact is that the seal of the Spirit cannot be broken.

So stating that one can lose salvation pits the members of the Trinity against each other.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christ will lose none. Nowhere does it say the children of God will not be disowned. I haven’t said anything about someone losing the Holy Spirit, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that someone who receives the Holy Spirit will cannot lose their salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Luke 13 gives a similar message. The tree that doesn’t bear fruit is cut down. It’s just a different analogy.

But it never bore fruit. So it was never useful.

 

[Hammster]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christ will lose none. Nowhere does it say the children of God will not be disowned. I haven’t said anything about someone losing the Holy Spirit, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that someone who receives the Holy Spirit will cannot lose their salvation.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:27-29

 

[CharismaticLady]

His point was that justification is by faith alone, in the OT and NT periods, and a man is blessed whose sins are not held against him.

This is true, and your past old sins are not held against you when you come to Jesus. Then Jesus gives us who truly repent His Holy Spirit to walk in so you don't commit sins of the flesh. You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God indwells you. And anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Him. We have to become children of God, and no longer slaves to sin. Jesus provides that, if you truly repent and become born again of the Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But that’s still not unconditional election because it’s based on what we will choose. That’s simply conditional election.

Exactly. I believe I was saying that, brother. Unconditional election (Calvinism) is not true. Conditional Election is true.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your pastor, then, must disagree with Paul.

Let's see if you are understanding Paul yourself. For once tell us what you believe Paul is saying completely.