Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[CharismaticLady]

"face to face" is referring to the analogy of the mirror. When 'completion' comes it would be no longer be like seeing someone dimly in a broken mirror but instead be like seeing someone 'face to face'.

I see that as face to face with God. We will know God then, just as well as He knows us now. Even the Bible is like seeing God through a dark glass. We cannot see Him in all His glory as we will then.

cc: @Saint Steven

 

[CharismaticLady]

1 Cor 14:2 doesn't say Corinthian tongues was a non-human language. It says he (whoever it was) was speaking a language that no one in the congregation understood. That doesn't mean it must be non-human. If he was speaking say Persian in a small Greek house church it is no surprise that no one understood. Remember the context of Ch14 is church meetings.

I didn't either, but tongues are not for the PURPOSE of speaking to man. In other words, it is not for preaching the word to foreigners as many ignorantly believe. It is for speaking TO God in perfect prayer and perfect praise.

Read the verse again. WHO are we speaking TO?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I thought I just answered that. But it seems you want me to say, pray God's will.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I advise against telling God what to give us when we have a concern. I prefer to turn it over to him and let him decide what the best solution is. If he wants to give me a fish, I shouldn't pray for a snake.

And more often than not, instead of changing my SITUATION, he wants to change ME.

I agree. He wants to change us. What is human nature? I want it NOW!!!

What I am getting at, and what I've used ever since I received it in 1977 is listening for His voice, that I could then clearly hear. He now tells me what to pray, I repeat His words exactly, and it comes to pass.

 

[swordsman1]

I see that as face to face with God. We will know God then, just as well as He knows us now. Even the Bible is like seeing God through a dark glass. We cannot see Him in all His glory as we will then.

cc: @Saint Steven

Again you are reading your own ideas into the text. There is no mention of seeing "God" face to face. Seeing someone dimly through a dark glass is analogous to the gifts of prophecy and knowledge (v9) which are only "in part" but they would cease when "completion" (the completed canon) comes and we would then see God's revelation to man with much greater clarity - like seeing someone 'face to face'.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Again you are reading your own ideas into the text. There is no mention of seeing "God" face to face. Seeing someone dimly through a dark glass is analogous to the gifts of prophecy and knowledge (v9) which are only "in part" but they would cease when "completion" (the completed canon) comes and we would then see God's revelation to man with much greater clarity - like seeing someone 'face to face'.

It is not the completion of the canon. ROFL

That is NOT the end of the New Covenant! But when we see Him face to face IS the end of the Covenant.

 

[Butch5]

Well they started up again full force didn't they. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul does say when they would cease - When we see Him FACE TO FACE.

No they didn't. And, Paul doesn't say they'll cease when we see him face to face. Face to face is part of the analogy.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.1 (1 Cor. 13:12 KJV)

The word "him" isn't even in the sentence. Seeing face to face is contrasted with looking through a glass darkly. One's not clear the other is. In Paul's day they didn't have glass mirrors, they used polished metal. The reflection wasn't that great, one couldn't see themselves all that well. However, seeing someone face to face was quite clear. It's one of three examples he gives. He gives another about knowing now but then he will have complete knowledge. There's nothing here about seeing Jesus face to face. He contrasts partial knowledge with full Knowledge.

 

[Butch5]

It is not the completion of the canon. ROFL

That is NOT the end of the New Covenant! But when we see Him face to face IS the end of the Covenant.

The cessation has nothing to do with the end of the Covenant.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No they didn't. And, Paul doesn't say they'll cease when we see him face to face. Face to face is part of the analogy.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.1 (1 Cor. 13:12 KJV)

The word "him" isn't even in the sentence. Seeing face to face is contrasted with looking through a glass darkly. One's not clear the other is. In Paul's day they didn't have glass mirrors, they used polished metal. The reflection wasn't that great, one couldn't see themselves all that well. However, seeing someone face to face was quite clear. It's one of three examples he gives. He gives another about knowing now but then he will have complete knowledge. There's nothing here about seeing Jesus face to face. He contrasts partial knowledge with full Knowledge.

The Old Covenant was the covenant of Law. The New Covenant is the covenant of Spirit. We are still in the New Covenant and the gifts are operating today just like they did back then at the beginning. At least, in my life and all my friends they are.

But they weren't for the first 30 years I went to church. Not until I was born again and filled with the Spirit did I receive many of the gifts of 1 Corinthians 12, and all of the signs of Mark 16:16-17

 

[CharismaticLady]

The cessation has nothing to do with the end of the Covenant.

The Spirit does. And they are His gifts to give.

 

[Butch5]

The Old Covenant was the covenant of Law. The New Covenant is the covenant of Spirit. We are still in the New Covenant and the gifts are operating today just like they did back then at the beginning. At least, in my life and all my friends they are.

But they weren't for the first 30 years I went to church. Not until I was born again and filled with the Spirit did I receive many of the gifts of 1 Corinthians 12, and all of the signs of Mark 16:16-17

Covenant of Spirit? Are you making this stuff up?

The gifts ceased a long time ago, they were given for a purpose and that purpose was served.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Covenant of Spirit? Are you making this stuff up?

The gifts ceased a long time ago, they were given for a purpose and that purpose was served.

It is called the ministry of the Spirit. The Old Covenant was called the ministry of death

 

[swordsman1]

I didn't either, but tongues are not for the PURPOSE of speaking to man. In other words, it is not for preaching the word to foreigners as many ignorantly believe. It is for speaking TO God in perfect prayer and perfect praise.

Read the verse again. WHO are we speaking TO?

I agree that it doesn't specifically say tongues were for speaking the gospel to man. Nor was it for privately praying to God. That would be an abuse of a spiritual gift which is only for the benefit of others (1 Cor 12:7, 1 Peter 4:10). In 1 Cor 14:2 the tongues speaker was also abusing the gift of tongues because no one understood the foreign language he was speaking. He was only speaking to God, when he should have been edifying the church. His tongues should have been translated so that the church could be edified:

1 Cor 14:5 "unless someone interprets, so that the church may receive edifying."​

As well as edifying the church, the purpose of the gift, like the other sign gifts, was as a sign that those who possessed this miraculous ability of speaking foreign languages were from God, just as it was at Pentecost. And as a sign of judgement to those who did not understand the language spoken (1 Cor 14:21-22).

 

[Butch5]

The Spirit does. And they are His gifts to give.

It was the Father who gave the gifts. But, the end of the covenant has nothing to do with the gifts

 

[Butch5]

It is called the ministry of the Spirit.

You're all over the place. First it's the covenant, now it's the ministry. I think you're making stuff up to fit what you believe.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I know enough to know anyone who says anything that is part of a covenant ceases, doesn't know covenant theology at all.

You are not answering my question.
I do not think you have any idea about the term Covenant theology. I do not think you get it. This is important as you suggest some of us do not know about it, and yet it is obvious you do not have a handle on it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I agree that it doesn't specifically say tongues were for speaking the gospel to man. Nor was it for privately praying to God. That would be an abuse of a spiritual gift which is only for the benefit of others (1 Cor 12:7, 1 Peter 4:10). In 1 Cor 14:2 the tongues speaker was also abusing the gift of tongues because no one understood what he was saying. He was only speaking to God, when he should have been edifying the church. His tongues should have been translated so that the church could be edified.

1 Cor 14:5 "unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying."​

As well as edifying the church, the purpose of the gift, like the other sign gifts, was as a sign that those who possessed this miraculous ability of speaking foreign languages were from God, just as it was at Pentecost. And as a sign of judgement to those who reject them (1 Cor 14:21-22).

I understand the confusion. 1 Corinthian 12 gifts were for the profit of all. But the Mark 16:16-17 gifts were for us individually, separate from the congregation. Individually we are to pray in the Spirit (tongues), and sing in the Spirit (praise). And also with the understanding, not just all tongues or all understanding.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're all over the place. First it's the covenant, now it's the ministry. I think you're making stuff up to fit what you believe.

It is both. The Ten Commandments were the first covenant, called the ministry of death.

Our New Covenant is the indwelling Spirit, thus the ministry of the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

I didn't either, but tongues are not for the PURPOSE of speaking to man. In other words, it is not for preaching the word to foreigners as many ignorantly believe. It is for speaking TO God in perfect prayer and perfect praise.

Read the verse again. WHO are we speaking TO?

Yeah it was. It was a sign to Israel.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts 2:7-11 KJV)

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are not answering my question.
I do not think you have any idea about the term Covenant theology. I do not think you get it. This is important as you suggest some of us do not know about it, and yet it is obvious you do not have a handle on it.

I probably don't know everything, but I know enough to know that nothing ceases inside a covenant until the covenant, itself, ends. Each covenant also has a sign of the covenant. Do you know the sign of the Old Covenant? Do you know the Sign of the New Covenant?

So be my guest - teach me what I don't know. I'm very interested - honestly.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yeah it was. It was a sign to Israel.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts 2:7-11 KJV)

Why would God go against His own commandment?