The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

[zoidar]

We want to allow for the fact that God allows human choice, and cannot constrain it in allowing it, because we consider unconstrained human choice a great good. Maybe, we consider it one of the greatest of all goods. But, if that great good leads to the destruction of some, or any, is it still a great good?

The idea that God does not accomplish what God sets out to do for the sake of human freedom comes across as a gross anthropomorphism. Moreover, if God cannot guarantee what God sets out to do, then the ground of our own faith and hope falls apart.

Personally, I hold that God will succeed in accomplishing all God has set out to do and it will be very, very good. Whatever I believe, theologically speaking, begins with that premise. Otherwise, it all falls apart.

I also believe God accomplishes what He sets out to do. But what He wants to do with my life or your life depends on your response to His call.

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar -

Romans 9:19-20

"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

If libertarian free will is right, the answer would have been everyone can resist God's will, not who are you to talk back to God.


Excusing Sinners and Blaming God: A Calvinist Assessment of Determinism, Moral Responsibility, and Divine Involvement in Evil. by Guillaume Bignon

^^ read up..

Read on the concept compatiblism..

I'm not 100% sure what libetarian free will means. If it means we can choose 100% freely, then I don't believe in it.

I don't have the same understanding as you on Romans 9.

I don't think I will read up on Bignon, unless you direct me to a shorter text, but I will read more about compatibilism.

 

[zoidar]

How can you put this on par with what we face day to day? Or are you getting supernatural “rides” to your next location as Phillip did?

It has happened and I failed the test.

 

[fhansen]

I'm starting this thread with a post from Bill. Let us discuss and be kind and understanding.



Good evening Bill! For God everything is possible. I will answer you by an example of God's will and man's will.

Acts 8
25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) 27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:

“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33“IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”

34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] 38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

Now to the question. Let's say when Philip heard the voice of the Holy Spirit and didn't choose to follow the voice. Then the eunuch didn't get the message of Christ and wasn't saved. Who would be to be blamed? God? No, God wanted for Philip to deliver the message to the eunuch and save him. Philip? Yes, he was the one who chose to not follow the voice of Holy Spirit.

This is the situation of God and man. God wants everyone saved, but because of man not everyone is.

Christ love,
Peter

No, God's in the business of patiently drawing man into alignment with His will, without coercion or determinism. And that's why His will wasn't done in Eden; He didn't want Adam to eat of the fruit when He commanded him not to eat of it. So we should sincerely pray, as we're instructed, that His will be done -on earth as it is in heaven. That's where he wants us to be, and that's what we're here to learn-the supreme value and wisdom and perfection of His will-so that He will be our God again as we choose to accept and cooperate with His grace, the first of which is the gift of faith. He's worked continuously with man ever since our Fall-for centuries- to bring us to the point where we might just begin to will rightly, to choose light over darkness when the full brilliance of His light is finally revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[renniks]

Yes, the Lord's Will shall always be done. People don't believe because it's not in their nature to do so. They are blind and deaf. Who chooses to be that way? No one.

Does God always get his way? This is one of the main assumptions of Calvinism. And it creeps into the thinking of most Christians in one way or another. Is God’s will a given in every situation or is this a world where God’s will is often thwarted (at least temporarily) by evil? Scripture tells us that going to the cross and rising from the dead was an act of war. (See Rom 8:3, Heb 2:14, 1 jn 3:8, Col 2:13-15.) How does this make sense if we live in a world where God’s will is already being played out in every action of every man?

Anyone who reads the Bible as it is written and takes it at face value already knows the answer to this question. From the very first man onward, the Biblical narrative is one of God laying out the rules and man’s disobedience. So, how is it that so many of us just assume that God always get’s his way in human affairs?

God has to DIE to reconcile humans to himself and humans to each other (2 Cor 5:18-20; Eph 2:13-14) If God is already getting his way in everything, why is this incredible sacrifice necessary? If he had created men who weren’t free agents, able to choose good or evil, there would be no war, no sin and no need of a dying Christ. But pay attention now, how does God go about getting his way? How does he begin to bring his will about in this war-torn world? Not by flexing his muscles and displaying his power and wiping everyone out (been there, done that) but by self-sacrificial love. The picture we get from Christ is not of God the all-controlling ego-maniac, but a God of compelling love who pursues his people, even though they often reject him.

Listen to the words of Jesus’ heart in Luke: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.”

You wouldn’t let me? How can it get any clearer that God’s will was not for his people to reject him?

 

[RDKirk]

Have you heard the voice of the Holy Spirit?

Yes

If so, have you always done what the Holy Spirit told you to do?

No.

 

[renniks]

This is folly....Man's will can never trump God's will..... It can only appear to...for a time....but is not reality.

Listen to the words of Jesus’ heart in Luke: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.”

You wouldn’t let me? How can it get any clearer that God’s will was not for his people to reject him?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm not 100% sure what libetarian free will means. If it means we can choose 100% freely, then I don't believe in it.

I don't have the same understanding as you on Romans 9.

I don't think I will read up on Bignon, unless you direct me to a shorter text, but I will read more about compatibilism.

You forget in Romans 9 we were talking about individuals, people's family and loved ones who were not going to be saved, in accordance with the will of God..

it was a deep topic of deep concern to individuals who were personally affected by these events.

It's one thing to say all this philosophically, quite another when it's concerning your own family being either hardened or saved through the sovereignty of God..

Just saying. God bless...

 

[zoidar]

Yes

No.

Then do you think Philip had to obey the Holy Spirit?

 

[zoidar]

You forget in Romans 9 we were talking about individuals, people's family and loved ones who were not going to be saved, in accordance with the will of God..

it was a deep topic of deep concern to individuals who were personally affected by these events.

It's one thing to say all this philosophically, quite another when it's concerning your own family being either hardened or saved through the sovereignty of God..

Just saying. God bless...

Not to be unkind, but I don't fully understand your post.

Do you mean it's hard for you to hold to the sovereignity of God, when it comes to real life situations, yet you do?

Of course this is always a hard topic when we have loved ones that aren't saved. Whether we believe this or that, the fact remains that they aren't saved, and that makes our hearts heavy.

To me it's a huge comfort to know that God wants to save my loved ones, even they at this time don't know Christ.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Not to be unkind, but I don't fully understand your post.

Do you mean it's hard for you to hold to the sovereignity of God, when it comes to real life situations, yet you do?

Of course this is always a hard topic when we have loved ones that aren't saved. Whether we believe this or that, the fact remains that they aren't saved, and that makes our hearts heavy.

You weren't understanding my point...

I'll leave you to it. God bless you..

 

[RDKirk]

Then do you think Philip had to obey the Holy Spirit?

Jesus told Paul that he had been "kicking against the goads." Apparently Paul had been saying, "No" to the Holy Spirit himself.

It's kind of a conundrum. Would Philip have disobeyed God? I believe God knew he would not.

But more specifically for that particular situation, if you'll notice, it was the Hellenist evangelists who went out in force among the non-Jews during Paul's persecution while the apostles remained huddled in Jerusalem. Paul did not scatter the Judaic Christans, he scattered the Hellinists. It was the Hellenists who were first known as "Christians," and for a while the center of evangelism was Antioch, not Jerusalem.

I don't think any of that was by accident. God knew that the Hellenist Philip would be willing to speak to an Ethiopian eunuch...in fulfillment of Isaiah 56.

 

[zoidar]

You weren't understanding my point...

I'll leave you to it. God bless you..

Why not tell me? I would be greatful if you did. I don't like when I don't understand.

 

[zoidar]

Jesus told Paul that he had been "kicking against the goads." Apparently Paul had been saying, "No" to the Holy Spirit himself.

It's kind of a conundrum. Would Philip have disobeyed God? I believe God knew he would not.

But more specifically for that particular situation, if you'll notice, it was the Hellenist evangelists who went out in force among the non-Jews during Paul's persecution while the apostles remained huddled in Jerusalem. Paul did not scatter the Judaic Christans, he scattered the Hellinists. It was the Hellenists who were first known as "Christians," and for a while the center of evangelism was Antioch, not Jerusalem.

I don't think any of that was by accident. God knew that the Hellenist Philip would be willing to speak to an Ethiopian eunuch...in fulfillment of Isaiah 56.

Of course God knew, but that doesn't change that Philip could have chosen to not obey. If he had chosen that, God would also have known this.

 

[DennisTate]

I'm starting this thread with a post from Bill. Let us discuss and be kind and understanding.



Good evening Bill! For God everything is possible. I will answer you by an example of God's will and man's will.

Acts 8
25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) 27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:

“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33“IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”

34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] 38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

Now to the question. Let's say when Philip heard the voice of the Holy Spirit and didn't choose to follow the voice. Then the eunuch didn't get the message of Christ and wasn't saved. Who would be to be blamed? God? No, God wanted for Philip to deliver the message to the eunuch and save him. Philip? Yes, he was the one who chose to not follow the voice of Holy Spirit.

This is the situation of God and man. God wants everyone saved, but because of man not everyone is.

Christ love,
Peter

Yes....what Philip accomplished that day was not easy and he had to have a high level of faith which doesn't just happen but he got prepared by making wise choices to pray a lot and seek God with his whole heart.


Here is a rather extreme example of how this principle.....

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?

 

[renniks]

Yes, the Lord's Will shall always be done. People don't believe because it's not in their nature to do so. They are blind and deaf. Who chooses to be that way? No one.

"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

 

[renniks]

good and just God gives personal and individual directives He knows will be ignored? That doesn't really make sense. I invite you to readdress the question.

Of course he does. He directed our first parents not to eat from the tree.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not wanting to get into a debate. I'm aware that some say "the Scriptures don't mean what they say" ...

But they say the Lord desires all to be saved with no qualification, and prior to the Latin fathers, Christians understood that God desires all to be saved.

We don't even have to go that far though. If God is truly love, and if God is truly good - can we imagine that atrocities committed against His beloved children are His will? Yet those evils befall us.

At any rate ... am just answering the question. I realize folks may not agree, and I'm ok with that.

Except ... I do not think it is right to say that God planned the greatest evil of all - the crucifixion of Christ. This was a condescension to save us and proof of God's love. We must be careful not to pit God (the Father) against Christ (God the Son). It is impossible their will should be opposed, since God is One. God did not do evil in Christ.

God be with you.

"The Latin fathers seek to guard their application; and St Augustine actually says “by ‘all’ understand ‘all the predestined,’ because men of all sorts are among them.” The phrase is not “willeth to save all,” which would have been very near to universalism; but there is implied “the human acceptance of offered salvation on which even God’s predestination is contingent” Alford.'​

Which is how we know that this is not interpreted correctly

"free will" is not taught anywhere in the scriptures ... Does God will evil and suffering" Did God not plan the crucification of Christ, the greatest evil ever committed?

Scripture please

No one will fall at the cross unless drawn there by Gods grace.. (His "interference" with "free will")

 

[RDKirk]

Of course God knew, but that doesn't change that Philip could have chosen to not obey. If he had chosen that, God would also have known this.

You just go into circular reasoning on that path. What is the point?

If God knows what you will do, can you not do what God knows you will do?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Except ... I do not think it is right to say that God planned the greatest evil of all - the crucifixion of Christ. This was a condescension to save us and proof of God's love. We must be careful not to pit God (the Father) against Christ (God the Son). It is impossible their will should be opposed, since God is One. God did not do evil in Christ.

In and according to all Scripture, Yahuweh and Yahushua are echad, (one), eternally one, without beginning, not created but self-existent so to speak,
and they new the crucifixion was necessary in the plan of Salvation even
before anything was created.
Christ was thus , as His Word says, "crucified before the world began",
with perfect knowledge of all that would ever happen, and in full agreement Father and Son together, willingly and with no hesitation, knowing also the plan is /was always to show God's Wisdom to all the angels and heavenly beings throughout eternity.