Taking a closer look at OSAS - once-saved-always-saved

BobRyan

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If I can turn my back on God then my salvation is not ultimately up to Him.

It was "up to Him" to provide salvation in the first place no matter if one is preaching OSAS or free will.

But the question is "did he choose the robot model or the free-will model"? If it is "robots" then fine it is "all of God" and He alone is to blame if bad things happen... He alone is to be honored or "appreciated" when things go well.

But if HE chose the "free will" model -- then it is possible to have "He came to His OWN and His own received Him NOT" John 1:11

What is more you can have this Luke 7:30 " But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."

And you can have the "Israel - how I wanted.... but you would not" Matthew 23
 
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lismore

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We need to simply understand if one can be born again twice...

Scripture says no...

So the matter the op raises needs to take this into account.

Interesting point!

We are saved by grace. God's grace changes us, it evokes a response. We change. We're a new creation. All things are new. No-one who has received God's grace is unchanged or can walk away from it. It's life changing. God Bless :)
 
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BobRyan

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Interesting point!

We are saved by grace. God's grace changes us, it evokes a response. We change. We're a new creation. All things are new. No-one who has received God's grace is unchanged or can walk away from it. It's life changing. God Bless :)


So then after being "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 the person still has the hope of "being grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Many people claimed they are born again. Am I not supposed to be gullible and naive to trust all of them? There are people who claimed they have the gift of eternal life, but they were not sent by God. They are false prophets.

There were saints long before Christ left Nazareth and moved to Capernaum. Will any of these be born again?

I remember in Acts Herod Antipas made a speech that pleased the crowd. God must have helped Herod, but he did not give God the credit. The people were saying he was a God. Herod did not deny it. Herod soon died.

The Holy Spirit may work with someone without the person receiving the full gift of eternal life.

I am not talking about folks claiming to be born again.

If you are born again you are transferred out of the Kingdom of Darkness permanently. Col 1:13

Of course the Holy Spirit can work with folks but that is not the same as the permanent indwelling presence which includes the Fear of Him which seals your salvation which you receive when you are born again.

If you have Eternal life - you have eternal life.

Let's stop calling God a liar...
 
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BobRyan

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The New Covenant kicked in at resurrection time when the Holy Spirit was given to indwell and seal the salvation of believers.
.

1. The new covenant is in the Old Testament - Jer 31:31-33 it is merely "quoted" in the NT from that one OT text.
2. There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel was preached "in the OT" to Abraham Gal 3:8
3. That New Covenant (one Gospel) is what enabled Moses and Elijah to stand "in glory" with Christ in Matthew 17 -- before the cross.
 
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If I can turn my back on God then my salvation is not ultimately up to Him.

God provides the way of escape. But if we don't choose His way of escape, then how can there be any hope of salvation? But if salvation is not up to us in any way then this means God forces some to be saved and He forces others to not be saved. That's not a rescue but a forced hostile takeover or invasion. In fact, does that sound like a fair and loving God? For would it be fair for a coast guard to save a group of people lost at sea except you and your family based upon no good reason? Surely not. God is good. God is not going to force His love upon you. Neither can we take credit for the way of escape He provides for us. Did we die on the cross for our sins? No. Can we forgive our own sins? No. Can we live holy without the Lord? No. So you set up a faulty argument that we somehow magically get all the glory if we cooperate with God's plan of salvation for us. Surely a person who has been rescued does not take the credit but they give the credit to the One who rescued them. But does that mean that the person rescued may not have cooperated in their own rescue? Could they have grabbed on to the rope to be pulled up a cliff to safety? Is a loving marriage between a man and woman forced? Or did they choose to love each other of their own free will? Do you think a marriage is without loving faithfulness? Think.
 
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mark46

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Many OSAS folks seem to reject the consistent doctrine of double predestination.

Surely, God plans our lives, and decided before our birth whether we are to accept salvation or not. If nothing that we do (or say) can change the fact that God's will be done, then we are left with that we are born to go to heaven or to hell. We have free will, but God knows (and has planned) how we will decide.

I stand with Wesley. We do have free will. And we choose to reject God, even though we at one point accepted him. It is simply not enough to walk down the aisle as a child, give your life to God, and expect that "in return" God will give you eternal life. The child did NOT give away his ability to turn from God.
 
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mark46

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And more than that, in this view, God made this decision before our birth.

God provides the way of escape. But if we don't choose His way of escape, then how can there be any hope of salvation? But if salvation is not up to us in any way then this means God forces some to be saved and He forces others to not be saved. .
 
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dqhall

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I am not talking about folks claiming to be born again.

If you are born again you are transferred out of the Kingdom of Darkness permanently. Col 1:13

Of course the Holy Spirit can work with folks but that is not the same as the permanent indwelling presence which includes the Fear of Him which seals your salvation which you receive when you are born again.

If you have Eternal life - you have eternal life.

Let's stop calling God a liar...
I did not call God a liar. You might have to wait for the resurrection to see what will happen. The second coming, resurrection, new heavens and new world have not happened yet. I do believe I have a mortal body that is perishable. I do not pretend to know who will be resurrected or when. As far as I know the dead sleep. For the time being there is much suffering on earth because Jesus has not returned. I know if I do good in the name of Jesus, I will not lose my reward.

If you have been resurrected and ascended to heaven, you are born again. If people touch your clothes and are healed, they might write books about you like they did for Jesus.
 
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Carl Emerson

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1. The new covenant is in the Old Testament - Jer 31:31-33 it is merely "quoted" in the NT from that one OT text.
2. There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel was preached "in the OT" to Abraham Gal 3:8
3. That New Covenant (one Gospel) is what enabled Moses and Elijah to stand "in glory" with Christ in Matthew 17 -- before the cross.

1. Wrong...

Jer 32: 38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

2. The Cross justified OT believers in retrospect as it is a timeless event anchored at one point of history. That does not mean OT believers were born again and the indwelling presence prophesied by Jeremiah was not given until after the resurrection.

3. If the New Covenant was occurring in the OT why would Jeremiah prophesy its coming as a future event?
 
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royal priest

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God provides the way of escape. But if we don't choose His way of escape, then how can there be any hope of salvation? But if salvation is not up to us in any way then this means God forces some to be saved and He forces others to not be saved. That's not a rescue but a forced hostile takeover or invasion. In fact, does that sound like a fair and loving God? For would it be fair for a coast guard to save a group of people lost at sea except you and your family based upon no good reason? Surely not. God is good. God is not going to force His love upon you. Neither can we take credit for the way of escape He provides for us. Did we die on the cross for our sins? No. Can we forgive our own sins? No. Can we live holy without the Lord? No. So you set up a faulty argument that we somehow magically get all the glory if we cooperate with God's plan of salvation for us. Surely a person who has been rescued does not take the credit but they give the credit to the One who rescued them. But does that mean that the person rescued may not have cooperated in their own rescue? Could they have grabbed on to the rope to be pulled up a cliff to safety? Is a loving marriage between a man and woman forced? Or did they choose to love each other of their own free will? Do you think a marriage is without loving faithfulness? Think.
If I am accustomed to do evil then how can I do anything good? The leopard cannot change his spots and the Ethiopian cannot change his skin. God gave me a new heart which loves righteousness and makes me willing to follow Him.
 
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BobRyan

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Many OSAS folks seem to reject the consistent doctrine of double predestination.

Surely, God plans our lives, and decided before our birth whether we are to accept salvation or not. If nothing that we do (or say) can change the fact that God's will be done, then we are left with that we are born to go to heaven or to hell. We have free will, but God knows (and has planned) how we will decide.

I stand with Wesley. We do have free will. And we choose to reject God, even though we at one point accepted him. It is simply not enough to walk down the aisle as a child, give your life to God, and expect that "in return" God will give you eternal life. The child did NOT give away his ability to turn from God.

I agree with a lot of that -- but if a 12 year old child accepts Christ and is baptized they do have eternal life - they are born-again, they are the "new creation" of 2 Cor 5... however as you say they did not at the age of 12 "give away their ability to make choices" even bad ones. They could indeed choose 20 years later to be "severed from Christ, fallen from grace" Gal 5:4. They could "fail to persevere" - at some later point in life.
 
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BobRyan

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1. The new covenant is in the Old Testament - Jer 31:31-33 it is merely "quoted" in the NT from that one OT text.
2. There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel was preached "in the OT" to Abraham Gal 3:8
3. That New Covenant (one Gospel) is what enabled Moses and Elijah to stand "in glory" with Christ in Matthew 17 -- before the cross.

Those texts are actually in the Bible just as noted above.



1. Wrong...
Jer 32: 38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Quoting other parts of Jeremiah -- even Jeremiah 32 does not make Jeremiah 31 "wrong" or "not the New Covenant" since Hebrew 8:6-11 includes a "verbatim quote" of Jeremiah 31:31-34 insisting that it was true... and still is true.

Jer 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Now lets find it again in Hebrews 8
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days
10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

It is "unchanged" in the NT from its OT form.

It is "the one Gospel" the one and only way of salvation, new birth, adoption, forgiveness of sin, new creation.


2. The Cross justified OT believers in retrospect as it is a timeless event anchored at one point of history.

Which is why that one Gospel of Jeremiah 31 is "unchanged" in OT and NT - it provides for the new creation, forgiveness of sins, adoption into the family of God ..

The result is that before the cross we have Moses and Elijah "in glory" standing with Christ. Fully forgiven, redeemed and in glory.

Matt 17
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


Luke 9
29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.


Luke 9
29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him


That does not mean OT believers were born again and the indwelling presence prophesied by Jeremiah was not given until after the resurrection.

That statement appears in the form of speculation/preference not a "quote" of something. And you have free will and are welcome to your opinion on that point. We can agree to differ.

3. If the New Covenant was occurring in the OT why would Jeremiah prophesy its coming as a future event?

the same "will make" statement in Jeremiah 31 is also found "unchanged" in Hebrews 8. If that is taken to mean "nobody is under the New Covenant today" then you would be excluding everyone in the OT and the NT - both lived under the same exact unchanged statement.

You would also need "Another gospel" that is not the New Covenant one for OT and one for NT.. that would be "another gospel" and as Paul states that is not a good option since that "ONE gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 was "preached to Abraham".

Hebrews 4 "for the GOSPEL has been preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST"

Psalms 51 "taken not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
 
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BobRyan

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If I am accustomed to do evil then how can I do anything good? The leopard cannot change his spots and the Ethiopian cannot change his skin. God gave me a new heart which loves righteousness and makes me willing to follow Him.

God has the "Ability" to DRAW the lost unto Him and to "enable" the lost to "choose" salvation "resulting in salvation" (Supernatural drawing of ALL unto Him John 12:32)

Rom 10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation
 
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BobRyan

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If God says He has given you eternal life, He will always keep His word. Eternal life is Eternal life. Otherwise He would have lied, and to suggest that is blasphemous.

Jesus is the one saying of the Gospel benefit for mankind "I forgave you all that debt" in Matthew 18 and he is the one warning us about all that debt being returned to us - in Matthew 18
 
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Carl Emerson

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BobRyan

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You missed my point entirely...

Did Jeremiah prophecy concerning a New Covenant to come or not ???

Yes or no...

Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 make the same statement that God "will make" the New Covenant "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".

It is the "one Gospel".

And .. the one Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

What is more the "New Heart" is OT
The "Law of God written on the heart" - is OT

Moses and Elijah standing with Christ - were OT

They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10

=========================

You are hoping to find that the NC in the OT is of the form "some day a NEW Covenant will be made" and in the NT it says "I made the NEW Covenant already".

Instead we find the "same language" for the NC in Jeremiah 31:31-34 AND in Hebrews 8 -- unchanged OT and NT. the same.

One Gospel and that Gospel in all ages - is the New Covenant.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 make the same statement that God "will make" the New Covenant "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"

OK so far - you are agreeing it is an event to come...

Tell me when did this happen???
 
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royal priest

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It was "up to Him" to provide salvation in the first place no matter if one is preaching OSAS or free will.

But the question is "did he choose the robot model or the free-will model"? If it is "robots" then fine it is "all of God" and He alone is to blame if bad things happen... He alone is to be honored or "appreciated" when things go well.

But if HE chose the "free will" model -- then it is possible to have "He came to His OWN and His own received Him NOT" John 1:11

What is more you can have this Luke 7:30 " But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."

And you can have the "Israel - how I wanted.... but you would not" Matthew 23
Robots don't have wills. God can ordain the cattle to bring the ark to Israel and yet they freely and happily follow their volition to follow the path of their own choosing
 
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