Is Calvinism Just?

[Dorothy Mae]

Does the reprobate DESIRE to repent?

There is a thread on here where a poster greatly longs to repent but cannot. He goes on and on. SO yes, some certainly do. Now what? Your effort to blame the reprobate trying to let God off the hook fails. The problem is this, if God is doing it all, then he is always to blame for those who miss heaven. There is no way around that one. If the reprobate does not want to repent, it is God's fault in Calvinism anyway. If the reprobate does not want to go to hell, it is GOd's fault that he does not in Calvinism. This is unjust.

We are debating the injustice in the Calvinist theology but there is something much bigger at stake really. The Calvinist will stand one day before the living and just God and give an answer as to why they embraced a theology that dishonors him in the world by describing him as doing injustice. They will not be able to lie before him. One very common answer will be that they wanted to go to Heaven and wanted a theology that assured them of that outcome no matter how they lived. It will not be pleasant.

 

[Tolworth John]

If one makes up what theology one’s likes, this is true. If one walks with God and learns from Him, this is not true of them. The former is cheap and the latter is expensive.

Yes and both sides acuse the other of making it up as they go along, when it is realy two groups of Christians trying to understand God from there bias.

The post is 'Is Calvinism Just?'
It is an irrelevent question as all men are sinners and are fallible, only God is Just.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes and both sides acuse the other of making it up as they go along, when it is realy two groups of Christians trying to understand God from there bias.

I am not convinced that many really are trying to understand God at all. They don't talk about understanding him. I have read a lot of posts and few to none ask about God. They mostly tell us what He is doing even if there is no description of this in the Bible. Calvinism does this a lot. Assumes they know what God does when a person is saved. None of the writers of the Bible talked about this in detail.

The post is 'Is Calvinism Just?'
It is an irrelevent question as all men are sinners and are fallible, only God is Just.

Ah, you are a Calvinist, right? The Calvinists have a history of shutting down understanding God which happens mainly in the mind. This goes all the back to Calvin. This is why I say that few are trying to really understand God. Within a few minutes you proved my point by wanting to shut down any questions that would lead to understanding Him. He himself says, "come let us reason together." He is not afraid of questions and definately welcomes those who want to try to understand him, although it will not come by trying.

A faith unable to be examined is not a faith worth having.

 

[zoidar]

I agree that God doesn't have to elect anyone and He still would be righteous. But if God chooses to not elect someone because of a decision apart from them, then could it be said He is merciful (and just)?

 

[straykat]

Predestination is just. But trying to understand it (who can know these deep things of God and eternity, while we're here on earth? As the scripture says, we see through a glass darkly) and trying to build some extensive worldview around it probably is unjust. At the very least, it's not practical and doesn't do the simple work of spreading the gospel. It gets too lost in the esoteric and things beyond human comprehension (for now).

 

[zoidar]

Predestination is just. But trying to understand it (who can know these deep things of God and eternity, while we're here on earth? As the scripture says, we see through a glass darkly) and trying to build some extensive worldview around it probably is unjust. At the very least, it's not practical and doesn't do the simple work of spreading the gospel. It gets too lost in the esoteric and things beyond human comprehension (for now).

I agree that predestination is just, but is the Calvinistic view of predestination just?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree that God doesn't have to elect anyone and He still would be righteous. But if God chooses to not elect someone because of a decision apart from them, then could it be said He is merciful (and just)?

No, it would be said he is cruel and unjust. The doctrine of calvinism requires the man does nothing to influence God's decision. This means the judge is deciding the fate of men with or without them having done anything to deserve the decision.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Predestination is just. But trying to understand it (who can know these deep things of God and eternity, while we're here on earth? As the scripture says, we see through a glass darkly) and trying to build some extensive worldview around it probably is unjust. At the very least, it's not practical and doesn't do the simple work of spreading the gospel. It gets too lost in the esoteric and things beyond human comprehension (for now).

By declaring something as just or unjust merely because you think you have that power is a kind of tyranny. Predestination is unjust by virtue of all the laws of justice known to man and God. You can shout very loudly it is just but the second sentence shows that, as I said in a previous post, you show that you do not understand the god you believe in and accept that state of affairs. And I admit you never will understand that god because it is not the real one. I understand the real one and it is really marvelous to love God with your mind, that is, understand why he does what he does.

 

[straykat]

By declaring something as just or unjust merely because you think you have that power is a kind of tyranny. Predestination is unjust by virtue of all the laws of justice known to man and God. You can shout very loudly it is just but the second sentence shows that, as I said in a previous post, you show that you do not understand the god you believe in and accept that state of affairs. And I admit you never will understand that god because it is not the real one. I understand the real one and it is really marvelous to love God with your mind, that is, understand why he does what he does.

I'm not declaring very much myself. That's kind of the whole point of my post. These things are above my pay grade. And above everyone else's too. It's enough for me to acknowledge that God is all powerful and has providence in all matter and time. But trying to dictate where the line is drawn between his power and the freedom he gives us is beyond all of us to understand for now. And I'm happy with that. I rejoice in the mysteries of God. I don't have to figure everything out. And I'll be happy to forever be learning, even when this earthly life is finished.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm not declaring very much myself. That's kind of the whole point of my post. These things are above my pay grade. And above everyone else's too. It's enough for me to acknowledge that God is all powerful and has providence in all matter and time. But trying to dictate where the line is drawn between his power and the freedom he gives us is beyond all of us to understand for now. And I'm happy with that. I rejoice in the mysteries of God. I don't have to figure everything out. And I'll be happy to forever be learning, even when this earthly life is finished.

Well, when you write XYZ is just, you are very much declaring it just same as a judge. If it were above your pay grade, as you say, you would not make a declaration. You would say you do not know as it is above your ability/position to make a judgement. Instead you made a judgement, end of discussion.

This is another example of what I wrote today, that few if any seek to understand God. Very few. You do not want to understand him but are content not to do so. There are those who want to understand him. It is possible but it is expensive. Not pursuing knowing GOd is much cheaper.

 

[zoidar]

I'm not declaring very much myself. That's kind of the whole point of my post. These things are above my pay grade. And above everyone else's too. It's enough for me to acknowledge that God is all powerful and has providence in all matter and time. But trying to dictate where the line is drawn between his power and the freedom he gives us is beyond all of us to understand for now. And I'm happy with that. I rejoice in the mysteries of God. I don't have to figure everything out. And I'll be happy to forever be learning, even when this earthly life is finished.

I'm much of the same thinking. It's mystery. I know God is just and merciful. Everything that depicts God being anything else is obviously false.

 

[Dave L]

So it a man’s fault because someone else (Adam) wanted to do wrong. That makes no sense.

Any in Adam's position would have done the same according to our nature. It becomes corrupt any time God presents it with a Law.

 

[Dave L]

You wrote you’d hate God if He didn’t turn out to be as Calvinism describes. You didn’t mention God being responsible for giving you a heart that loves Him even if He fails to meet your expectations.

Is the Arminian Christ the Christ of the bible. Or is he the Calvinist?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm much of the same thinking. It's mystery. I know God is just and merciful. Everything that depicts God being anything else is obviously false.

Its only a mystery because it is wrong. He is not like that. Those who understand him do not say his ways are a mystery. They know him which is what Jesus said is eternal life.

 

[Tolworth John]

Ah, you are a Calvinist, right? The Calvinists have a history of shutting down understanding God which happens mainly in the mind. This goes all the back to Calvin. This is why I say that few are trying to really understand God. Within a few minutes you proved my point by wanting to shut down any questions that would lead to understanding Him. He himself says, "come let us reason together." He is not afraid of questions and definately welcomes those who want to try to understand him, although it will not come by trying.

A faith unable to be examined is not a faith worth having.

The question of whether calvenism is just or not is irrelevent as it has nothing to do with the state of man or how God interacts with men.
How does the justice of calvenism or of armenimism affect how God saves?
Both are man made theological ideas.

A far better question is which theological ideas brings or gives most glory to God.

Does our ideas that God is in control give him more glory than the alternative idea that says that God is not in control?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is the Arminian Christ the Christ of the bible. Or is he the Calvinist?

Neither.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The question of whether calvenism is just or not is irrelevent as it has nothing to do with the state of man or how God interacts with men.

It has everything to do with our ability to understand the state of man and how God interacts with men. It is the foundation. If a person thinks a theology that is in the understand of man and GOd as unjust, he will never be able to understand the state of man and how God interacts with man. One cannot understand this if one accepts GOd does what is unjust.

How does the justice of calvenism or of armenimism affect how God saves?

If one accepts God can be unjust cause he as the power (sovereignity) to do so, one will not understand how God saves.

A far better question is which theological ideas brings or gives most glory to God.

Start a thread if you like. Calvinism is a disgrace to the glory of God though. The atheists deride the God of calvinism and there is no answer any calvinist can give.

Does our ideas that God is in control give him more glory than the alternative idea that says that God is not in control?

The idea that GOd is controlling (micromanaging) the world is an insult to him. You do not seem to be aware of the description of God that shows us that he does not WANT to be in control of everything. THis has not occured to you, has it?

 

[Dave L]

Neither.

You have 3 choices;

1) God saves people

2) God and people save people each doing their part

3) people save themselves by doing their part

Most all calling themselves Christian hold to the second position. This includes the "born again movement types", the Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelicals for the most part, and Charismatic groups, cults and what have you.

But scripture teaches the 1st possibility. God saves people wholly by grace from beginning to end.

In the end, # 2 is logically #3, people think they save themselves but give God the credit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So now the Calvinists are unjust but not God? Or have you just backtracked on what we agreed to above?

I haven’t seen anyone say that Calvinists or God is unjust. Only the hypothetical view of God from Calvin’s perspective of theology is unjust. We are refuting this theology with the premise that God is just as a means of establishing that Calvin’s theology cannot be correct on this basis.

 

[Tolworth John]

if one accepts GOd does what is unjust.

What a strange thing for a Christian to say, that God is unjust.
Part of the character of God is that he is Just.
We may be screaming at him, "What are you doing!" but because we do not understand does not make Gods actions unjust.

I question the understanding of anyone who starts with the idea that God is unjust.

The idea that GOd is controlling (micromanaging) the world is an insult to him.

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?" (Daniel 4:35).

This man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law (Acts 2:23).
In him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11).

Just three quotes that show God is incontroll.

If you believe God is not in control then can you say what God is in controll?