Questions About Hell

Dorothy Mae

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  1. Can Jesus Christ be the Savior of any more than He actually saves?-
  1. How does one answer such a question? Can a woman be a mother to any more children than she is a mother to? Your question makes no sense.
    [*]Can Jesus be "the Savior of the world," (1 John 4:14), if the world is not saved by him?
    Of course! His being the savior OFFERED TO SAVE THE WORLD is not dependent upon everyone accepting the offer.
    [*]Is Christ, in any sense, the Savior of unbelievers?
    No more than a fireman can rescue people in a burning house who refuse to leave. Doesn’t affect him being a fireman same as if they had complied.
    [*]If Christ be in no sense the Savior of unbelievers, why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
    It’s a dependent state.
    [*]If unbelievers are not called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior, what are they to believe?
    If they want hell, they can continue doing their own will. If they want His kingdom, they must accept Him as king. Makes perfect sense.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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" And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God."
If the testimony of God were to be declared it’d be a great improvement.
 
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RaymondG

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If the testimony of God we’re to be declared it’d be a great improvement.
Yet, those who walk with Jesus appear to be ignorant, unlearnt men.....whose words would not pass the acceptability test for children of God.....according to some.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Yet, those who walk with Jesus appear to be ignorant, unlearnt men.....whose words would not pass the acceptability test for children of God.....according to some.
Pretty sure these don’t walk with Him. Saved? Likely. Walk with Him? No, that requires more.
 
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FineLinen

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  1. Can Jesus Christ be the Savior of any more than He actually saves?
  2. Can Jesus be "the Savior of the world," (1 John 4:14), if the world is not saved by him?
  3. Is Christ, in any sense, the Savior of unbelievers?
  4. If Christ be in no sense the Savior of unbelievers, why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
  5. If unbelievers are not called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior, what are they to believe?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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  1. Can Jesus Christ be the Savior of any more than He actually saves?
  2. Can Jesus be "the Savior of the world," (1 John 4:14), if the world is not saved by him?
  3. Is Christ, in any sense, the Savior of unbelievers?
  4. If Christ be in no sense the Savior of unbelievers, why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
  5. If unbelievers are not called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior, what are they to believe?
See post 361 for pretty good answers
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Neo, I’ll stop writing you because you’re doing harm to your soul in your posts. Just know God has blessed my life more than I ever dreamed a person could experience this side of eternity. Since you indicate you want Him to bless others this ought to please you. Take care!
 
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FineLinen

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See post 361 for pretty good answers

Dear Dorothy: Jesus Christ is NOT a potential Saviour, He IS Saviour. He does not "offer" to change the world, He saves the world!

2edf657ffc2c2dd7a875e97d65c084b2d805f70c.jpeg
 
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Light of the East

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There is NO repentance after death and it is really cruel to promise men that they can sin as they like and just repent after the possiblity to sin is over anyway and they have no pleasure left to deny themselves.

Once again you utterly and with deliberation misrepresent Patristic Universalism.

No one who is a Universalist says to a sinner "Meeeeaaaaahhhh......sin all you want. Everything will be fine." To make that accusation is a deliberate lie and smear against those of us who believe that God will eventually save everyone. It also does directly against several posts I have made here in which I clearly and without any confusion state that sinners who die unrepentant will be scourged by the fire of God's love and it will be quite painful.

You should be ashamed of yourself for making up such a crass lie about us.

Furthermore, to not share Jesus with people is the meanest thing you can do to people, not only for the life that is to come, to avoid the chastisement of God, but in this life. One simply cannot find full fullness of life and joy without Christ. This world is filled to the brim with people who are in various stages of sorrow, distress, hurting, agony, addictions, etc. Finding Jesus, discovering His love, would put them onto a whole new life filled with joy and promise.

Stop lying about us!!
 
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A poster recently wrote a nice piece on written communication on forums. You should read it.

The reader, btw, determines if bold and colored with blinking lights is yelling. Everyone else understands we can all read.

In years of using bold and color to highlight my statements and make them stand out from the OP I am addressing so that people could read without being confused, you are the first person to ever accuse me of yelling.

I get the sense you are rather thin-skinned.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Dorothy Mae,
  1. If they want His kingdom, they must accept Him as king. Makes perfect sense.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Show me one sinner who is in love with sin who actually wants Jesus. Just one.

From the blogsite of Reluctantheretic: God’s Hand & Our Free Will

"If God had respected my free will, I would still be involved in a panoply of sins so disgusting and heinous that I will not mention them here. Or I would now be long dead and gone from this world. Given the severity of my wickedness and the insanity of my actions, I think probably the latter. Think of the Hippie Movement of the 1960’s and imagine every licentious, dirty, and wicked thing that the Movement promoted. That was me, and that was my “free will choice,” so to speak. I loved the sins of the flesh, I had declared myself an atheist, and I despised Christians. I wanted nothing at all to do with them or their Jesus. That was my free will. Go away God! Go away Christians!

So how did I come to the point of repenting and turning to Christ in sorrow for my sins? Did God overtake and remove my free will, eliciting from me a robotic response of repentance which He desired? Was my will violated in such a manner that I had no choice but to do what I was told?

No, God simply let me “run out my string.”

There is a saying in the Twelve Steps book of AA which says that you cannot make an addict change until he has hit the bottom and is watching his last bubble of air float to the surface. That is exactly what God did with me, allowing me to, of my own “free will,” hit the bottom and realize that all the “fun” I was having was about to kill me. Far from the sense of carnal excitement I felt when I took my first hit of marijuana, my life had become, in four years of unrestrained hedonism, a joyless tedium racked with sorrow and drug-induced psychosis. I was in deep trouble and I knew it, filled with suicidal thoughts but dreadfully scared of the black void which my atheism said was the ultimate end of man. Of my own free will, I began an intense search for the garden gate which offered escape from this fool’s paradise into which I had eagerly dashed. No one had to tell me it was get out or die – and no one was coercing me! I had come to the point that I knew it was the only option left for me. Yet even then, I could have chosen to shake my fist at God and die. I took the choice to live and began my search."


This is man in his natural state. He is in love with himself and as long as the world is a good place to him, he has no interest in a God whose love demands total self-giving and sacrifice. This is why we have so many unbelievers here in the United States. We have so many luxuries, so many goodies, so much hedonism, that people feel no need for God. All our toys and pleasures make us happy, and like selfish little children that we are, we tell God "Uhhhhh.....I really don't need you, but thanks anyway."

And what happened in the paragraph above in italics is how each and every created being will finally come to God. Some will not come to realize their nothingness until after they die and the true reality of their being sets in. Devoid of all their happy little consumerist toys, their hedonistic pleasures, their carnal delights, they will see themselves bare naked souls before the majesty of God. Only then will they cry out for mercy, seeing the One that the human heart longs for in the deepest parts of its reality.

But it will be too late then to avoid the painful transition which must take place. That soul, used to being selfish, will now realize that it must release everything it has held onto. C.S. Lewis beautifully portrayed this in his small book THE GREAT DIVORCE. In this story, souls that have died are given the choice to let go of themselves and enter the heavenly realm. They refuse and return to the bus to go back to Graytown.

God will keep offering to each soul until that painful moment that the soul relinquishes itself and enters into the union of self-giving love which is the love of the Trinity. The more sins on a person's soul, the more painful and the longer it will take to be rid of these things.

God does not stop loving. He does not stop offering Himself to His creation. God is love, therefore, that is all He can do, for love, real love of which we know so very little, is always seeking the best for the object of its affection. It is always looking to give of itself completely so that the other may be blessed and filled with joy. And if human beings can do this in limited ways, think of the unending love of the limitless God.

Think of it.
 
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FineLinen

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Ooooooooh!!!! Can I steal that???

What a great meme!!!

Dear Light: The Scripture speaks of stealing no more. It also says freely you have received freely give. I give it to you. Enjoy.
 
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Light of the East

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Dear Light: The Scripture speaks of stealing no more. It also says freely you have received freely give. I give it to you. Enjoy.

Thank you!
 
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Then how come some “drown?”

They don't. You just think they do because you have been falsely taught by people who were falsely taught by people who were falsely taught since Augustine destroyed Universal Salvation with his wretched soteriology.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Once again you utterly and with deliberation misrepresent Patristic Universalism.
I don’t even try to represent it at all. Why do you think I do? I never claimed that!! I take your position and apply it to real life.
No one who is a Universalist says to a sinner "Meeeeaaaaahhhh......sin all you want. Everything will be fine." To make that accusation is a deliberate lie and smear against those of us who believe that God will eventually save everyone.
But if they want to do so believing your faith that they can just repent after the fun is over, what do you say?
It also does directly against several posts I have made here in which I clearly and without any confusion state that sinners who die unrepentant will be scourged by the fire of God's love and it will be quite painful.
But only for a time. Then it’s back tothe good life. Not too bad. Jesus never promised this by the way.
You should be ashamed of yourself for making up such a crass lie about us.
If a person knew they’d end up
in heaven no matter how they behaved, that’s what your position allows them to do. You have no real argument against it:
Furthermore, to not share Jesus with people is the meanest thing you can do to people, not only for the life that is to come, to avoid the chastisement of God, but in this life.
I don’t see where Jesus warned us that not telling others about him is the meanest thing one can do.

One simply cannot find full fullness of life and joy without Christ. This world is filled to the brim with people who are in various stages of sorrow, distress, hurting, agony, addictions, etc. Finding Jesus, discovering His love, would put them onto a whole new life filled with joy and promise.
Is every Christian filled with joy and promise all the time? Is Jesus merely useful for a better life?
Stop lying about us!!
Admit to yourself that the man who doesn’t want to restrict his behavior to God’s morals but wants to get as much of the joys and pleasure this life promises no matter who he destroys in the process has little to fear in the next in your view. The worst human who ever lived doesn’t need to worry about judgement before God cause after some purging, he’ll end up in Heaven. So he can enjoy a life of stealing and lying and power and sensual delights as he wishes and still not miss out on heaven in your view. Or do you have an answer to that problem?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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In years of using bold and color to highlight my statements and make them stand out from the OP I am addressing so that people could read without being confused, you are the first person to ever accuse me of yelling.

I get the sense you are rather thin-skinned.
I, like many others, think it clutters up your post. Why can’t you see that? Most people dont use caps and colors as they kindly know readers find it more cumbersome to read. But you like to use the ad hominem instead of admitting this.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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They don't. You just think they do because you have been falsely taught by people who were falsely taught by people who were falsely taught since Augustine destroyed Universal Salvation with his wretched soteriology.
Huh? Jesus destroyed it long before. But just to be clear, you been to the after life and KNOW no one is lost?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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QUOTE="Dorothy Mae,
  1. If they want His kingdom, they must accept Him as king. Makes perfect sense.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Show me one sinner who is in love with sin who actually wants Jesus. Just one.
Your requirement has nothing to do with my statement. Talk about stupid responses.

I talked about surrender and you retort with “being in love with sin” which is absurd. People are not in love with sin but might love the pleasures of sin. Many a salvation has occurred in those loved their sin but saw it for what it was and loved Jesus more.
From the blogsite of Reluctantheretic: God’s Hand & Our Free Will

"If God had respected my free will, I would still be involved in a panoply of sins so disgusting and heinous that I will not mention them here. Or I would now be long dead and gone from this world. Given the severity of my wickedness and the insanity of my actions, I think probably the latter. Think of the Hippie Movement of the 1960’s and imagine every licentious, dirty, and wicked thing that the Movement promoted. That was me, and that was my “free will choice,” so to speak. I loved the sins of the flesh, I had declared myself an atheist, and I despised Christians. I wanted nothing at all to do with them or their Jesus. That was my free will. Go away God! Go away Christians!

So how did I come to the point of repenting and turning to Christ in sorrow for my sins? Did God overtake and remove my free will, eliciting from me a robotic response of repentance which He desired? Was my will violated in such a manner that I had no choice but to do what I was told?

No, God simply let me “run out my string.”

There is a saying in the Twelve Steps book of AA which says that you cannot make an addict change until he has hit the bottom and is watching his last bubble of air float to the surface. That is exactly what God did with me, allowing me to, of my own “free will,” hit the bottom and realize that all the “fun” I was having was about to kill me. Far from the sense of carnal excitement I felt when I took my first hit of marijuana, my life had become, in four years of unrestrained hedonism, a joyless tedium racked with sorrow and drug-induced psychosis. I was in deep trouble and I knew it, filled with suicidal thoughts but dreadfully scared of the black void which my atheism said was the ultimate end of man. Of my own free will, I began an intense search for the garden gate which offered escape from this fool’s paradise into which I had eagerly dashed. No one had to tell me it was get out or die – and no one was coercing me! I had come to the point that I knew it was the only option left for me. Yet even then, I could have chosen to shake my fist at God and die. I took the choice to live and began my search."
Not interested in reading a lecture. This is a discussion which requires responses.
This is man in his natural state. He is in love with himself and as long as the world is a good place to him, he has no interest in a God whose love demands total self-giving and sacrifice. This is why we have so many unbelievers here in the United States. We have so many luxuries, so many goodies, so much hedonism, that people feel no need for God. All our toys and pleasures make us happy, and like selfish little children that we are, we tell God "Uhhhhh.....I really don't need you, but thanks anyway."

And what happened in the paragraph above in italics is how each and every created being will finally come to God. Some will not come to realize their nothingness until after they die and the true reality of their being sets in. Devoid of all their happy little consumerist toys, their hedonistic pleasures, their carnal delights, they will see themselves bare naked souls before the majesty of God. Only then will they cry out for mercy, seeing the One that the human heart longs for in the deepest parts of its reality.

But it will be too late then to avoid the painful transition which must take place. That soul, used to being selfish, will now realize that it must release everything it has held onto.
The vivid adjectives don’t change the bare facts that God never promises this but the opposite. There is appointed once for a man to die and then comes judgement.
C.S. Lewis beautifully portrayed this in his small book THE GREAT DIVORCE. In this story, souls that have died are given the choice to let go of themselves and enter the heavenly realm. They refuse and return to the bus to go back to Graytown.
Lewis would be aghast that you thinks he’s describing something real.
God will keep offering to each soul until that painful moment that the soul relinquishes itself and enters into the union of self-giving love which is the love of the Trinity. The more sins on a person's soul, the more painful and the longer it will take to be rid of these things.
He promises no such thing. Hinduism comes close though to promising this
God does not stop loving. He does not stop offering Himself to His creation. God is love, therefore, that is all He can do, for love, real love of which we know so very little, is always seeking the best for the object of its affection.
He also loves others and so the time for offerings to help comes to an end. He doesn’t stop
loving but He does stop offering salvation.
It is always looking to give of itself completely so that the other may be blessed and filled with joy. And if human beings can do this in limited ways, think of the unending love of the limitless God.
This is a rather egoist and limited view of God and love and man for that matter. Who has ever given of themself so completely so the other can be filled with joy and is this necessarily a good thing. Jesus let the rich young ruler go. He let the 70 walk away. He didn’t even walk after them. I don’t see him doing anything close to your description.
Think of it.
I did and you don’t like it. If one thinks only a bit about your theology, it falls apart and is pretty heavily focused on pleasure for man, not much in terms of moral good for others.
 
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