Strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity

[FireDragon76]

Think about what you're saying. It doesn't actually make sense.

If you committed a crime in Iran, would you tell the Iranian judge who tried you that the trial was illegitimate because you were (I assume) a citizen of the USA?

If there was such a thing as a Martian, it would be quite capable, in principle, of judging a law case, assuming it had been through the correct training to understand our legal system. Haven't you ever seen Star Trek? Vulcans and humans may have their differences, but there are plenty of Vulcans in Starfleet.

Also, you haven't addressed what I think is the main point: we may not be able to understand God, but it seems that you are arguing here - correct me if I misunderstand you - that God had to become a human, because otherwise He would not be able to understand us.
Since God knows everything, by definition, that doesn't make sense.

In fairness to the Christian position, no, theologians don't usually say that God had to become a man to deal with humanity fairly or to understand human beings. However, theologians would say it was dignified to do so.

To give an example of what they mean by dignity, a soldier doesn't earn a medal for heroism in the sense of a strict legal requirement, but gets one nonetheless as a matter of dignity and recognition.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Since God knows everything, by definition, that doesn't make sense.

Indeed. Even with the incarnation this is true; Jesus' alleged perfection makes it so even the incarnation isn't sufficient for him to understand us. Did Jesus lust and thus commit adultery in his heart? I imagine Christians would answer no. Thus neither the father nor son nor holy ghost understand lust. Did Jesus get unrighteously angry? No? That's another thing deity doesn't understand. Jealous? Well, the OT has God jealous all over the place, so we'll have to allow it. Hate? See OT. Confusion? Again, no. Failure to understand? No. Was there anything that Jesus didn't or couldn't understand? No?

If the incarnation was so that God could walk in our shoes, it failed.

 

[Tinker Grey]

However, theologians would say it was dignified to do so.

I don't think I'd heard that one while I was a Christian. It certainly isn't commonly understood this way. It strikes me as a post hoc rationalization invented to deal with the incoherence of the common position -- ala God is ground of all being.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think I'd heard that one while I was a Christian.

That doesn't necessarily surprise me, but it's nonetheless very old, going at least back to medieval scholasticism.

As I said elsewhere, part of the problem is that Evangelicalism doesn't have a very deep understanding of Christianity to begin with, so it tends to vastly oversimplify elements of Christian theology in the interests of what amounts to sound bites that can be easily repeated in revivals and altar calls.

 

[Tinker Grey]

That doesn't necessarily surprise me, but it's nonetheless very old, going at least back to medieval scholasticism.

As I said elsewhere, part of the problem is that Evangelicalism doesn't have a very deep understanding of Christianity to begin with, so it tends to vastly oversimplify elements of Christian theology in the interests of what amounts to sound bites that can be easily repeated in revivals and altar calls.

Granted.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Infecting children" lol

Are children not infected okay ?
Are there any children okay? Any children not infected ?

 

[holo]

But...having been in your shoes....the judge NOW has the ability to forgive you.

This is the new covenant with God. He now has the background needed to forgive you. Because he gave his only son, He now knows the experience of the mother, the father, the son, the victim, the citizen, and every human suffering.

I'm sorry, but it still doesn't seem logical at all to me. I'm perfectly able to forgive people even if I have no idea what it's like to be them.

Forgiving isn't the same as letting someone else take the blame. Christians often seem to conflate those, or jump back and forth between "I am forgiven" and "Jesus took my blame." Which is it? Why is it that God can in some cases simply forgive people, but at the same time demand a blood sacrifice?

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm sorry, but it still doesn't seem logical at all to me. I'm perfectly able to forgive people even if I have no idea what it's like to be them.

The issue is that you are not qualified to forgive. You have not the authority needed. In the neck snapping example, for example. And if the suspects asks for mercy, your forgiveness falls on the perpetrators deaf ears. They don't recognise your forgiveness in their crimes.

 

[cloudyday2]

So there's another answer to your question.
Who can judge you other than somebody who has walked in your shoes
and been unjustly put to death?

Not persuasive to me. Every human is an individual with different strengths and weaknesses and unique stories. I would say that the omniscience of God gives him more right to judge and forgive me than some field trip He made 2000 years ago in the form of a human with perfect character and miraculous powers.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm sorry, but it still doesn't seem logical at all to me. I'm perfectly able to forgive people even if I have no idea what it's like to be them.

Forgiving isn't the same as letting someone else take the blame. Christians often seem to conflate those, or jump back and forth between "I am forgiven" and "Jesus took my blame." Which is it? Why is it that God can in some cases simply forgive people, but at the same time demand a blood sacrifice?

The forgiveness that Jesus offered wasn't cheap, I think that's the root of the sentiments. He payed for it with his life.

That's not why I don't identify as a Christian anymore. There are so many other ways of understanding Jesus death other than "angry sky parent needs to hurt somebody". I think @PloverWing pointed that out recently.

 

[SkyWriting]

Not persuasive to me. Every human is an individual with different strengths and weaknesses and unique stories. I would say that the omniscience of God gives him more right to judge and forgive me than some field trip He made 2000 years ago in the form of a human with perfect character and miraculous powers.

I forgive you for that.

 

[SkyWriting]

The forgiveness that Jesus offered wasn't cheap, I think that's the root of the sentiments. He payed for it with his life.

That's not why I don't identify as a Christian anymore. There are so many other ways of understanding Jesus death other than "angry sky parent needs to hurt somebody". I think @PloverWing pointed that out recently.

It's Jesus who both Judges and forgives. The Father does neither.

Any pain that results from your rejection is perfectly natural has
is not forced on a single person. There is no outside pressure
or pain from any other source. The Father does not get angry.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's Jesus who both Judges and forgives. The Father does neither.

Any pain that results from your rejection is perfectly natural has
is not forced on a single person. There is no outside pressure
or pain from any other source.

Just keep in mind while I am sympathetic on this particular point, I'm no longer a Christian and I don't read the Bible uncritically. I pretty much accept the conclusions of the Jesus Seminar, in fact. I view Jesus as a great Jewish humanist philosopher, but I don't consider myself a Christian. I don't believe in a final judgment in that manner. I believe human beings exist as a conditioned consciousness and any ideas about judgement are part of that. The need for a cosmic judge was created by humanity itself thousands of years ago to help mantain social order in complex, hierarchical societies, but I don't see it written into the cosmos.

 

[SkyWriting]

Just keep in mind while I am sympathetic on this particular point, I'm no longer a Christian and I don't read the Bible uncritically. I pretty much accept the conclusions of the Jesus Seminar, in fact. I view Jesus as a great Jewish humanist philosopher, but I don't consider myself a Christian. I don't believe in a final judgment in that manner. I believe human beings exist as a conditioned consciousness and any ideas about judgement are part of that. The need for a cosmic judge was created by humanity itself thousands of years ago to help mantain social order in complex, hierarchical societies, but I don't see it written into the cosmos.

It's there. Ever see life or just plain matter appear in a vacuum jar?
I didn't think so.

Romans 1
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Who Wants to actually SEE God Answer Prayers?

 

[FireDragon76]

It's there. Ever see life or just plain matter appear in a vacuum jar?
I didn't think so.

I don't think that's a compelling argument for Christianity and I don't even see what it has to do with a cosmic judge. The ideas are not mutually dependent, except in Christians minds.

I simply don't accept the notion of dogmatic, revealed religion. Life is either understood through reason and observation or it isn't understood at all. I see no reason to accept tradition, scriptures, anything like that as an absolute authority. That's one reason among many I stopped labelling myself Christian here, because I don't accept the Nicene Creed as something that should bind anyone's conscience.

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm not sure if this is the best list for debating Christians with. I agree with most of the things on it, mind, but they seem more like conclusions than arguments.

Can I offer this: Bob Seidensticker, of the Cross Examined website, has a list of "Silver Bullet" arguments.
25 Reasons We Don’t Live in a World with a God

Appendix: 25 Reasons We Don’t Live in a World with a God (complete list)

1. 1. Because we’ve seen what Christian society looks like
   2. Because religious beliefs reflect culture
   3. Because God needs praise and worship
   4. Because there’s a map of world religions
   5. Because nothing distinguishes those who follow god from everyone else
   6. Because televangelists make clear that prayer doesn’t work
   7. Because Christians want help from the government
   8. Because of unnecessary physical pain
   9. Because God gets credit for good things, but he’s never blamed for bad things
   10. Because the universe doesn’t look like it exists with mankind in mind
   11. Because God is absent from where we’d expect him
   12. Because physics rules out the soul or the afterlife
   13. Because “Christianity answers life’s Big Questions!” is irrelevant
   14. Because not even Christians take their religion seriously
   15. Because there’s a book called The Big Book of Bible Difficulties
   16. Because Christianity can’t be derived from first principles
   17. Because theism has no method to decide truth
   18. Because there are natural disasters
   19. Because the “best” Christian arguments are deist arguments
   20. Because the Bible story keeps rebooting
   21. Because doctrinal statements exist
   22. Because prayer doesn’t work
   23. Because of Shermer’s Law
   24. Because Christianity evolves
   25. Because God is hidden

Which from the list of 25 seem most applicable in an apologetics discussion?

Also I think one of the mistakes made by both the Christians and the non-Christians is to debate the existence of some vague notion of "God" rather than debating the truth of Christianity's claims.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The issue is that you are not qualified to forgive. You have not the authority needed. In the neck snapping example, for example. And if the suspects asks for mercy, your forgiveness falls on the perpetrators deaf ears. They don't recognise your forgiveness in their crimes.

That's just not the way it works. What you are describing fits with neither common sense nor the criminal justice system.
The original point is correct: why did God have to sacrifice Himself to appease Himself? It's nonsensical. And your defense - He had to become human so He, all-knowing though He is, could appreciate what it meant to be human and so be able to judge humans - simply doesn't answer. This has now been amply demonstrated.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Which from the list of 25 seem most applicable in an apologetics discussion?

Also I think one of the mistakes made by both the Christians and the non-Christians is to debate the existence of some vague notion of "God" rather than debating the truth of Christianity's claims.

A difficult question! They were all chosen as "silver bullet" arguments, as showing fatal flaws in Christian thinking. Which doesn't mean, of course, that Christians will accept this! I would be happy as saying that any one of them could show Christianity to be false, or at least ridiculously improbable and self-contradictory.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Not persuasive to me. Every human is an individual with different strengths and weaknesses and unique stories. I would say that the omniscience of God gives him more right to judge and forgive me than some field trip He made 2000 years ago in the form of a human with perfect character and miraculous powers.

Bingo! Thank you for putting that so neatly.

 

[Redac]

A difficult question! They were all chosen as "silver bullet" arguments, as showing fatal flaws in Christian thinking. Which doesn't mean, of course, that Christians will accept this! I would be happy as saying that any one of them could show Christianity to be false, or at least ridiculously improbable and self-contradictory.

I'd pretty strongly disagree that all of those would by themselves show Christianity to be false. Some of them bring up interesting topics that would be worth going into; others are, well, dumb.