I said:
"v.9 of ch 10 tells us how a sheep becomes one of His; by entering through Him."
Actually it says that those who are His sheep already (so much so that He calls them by name) will go through the gate and follow Him.
Here is v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
Nothing about naming any of them here. Or that they are His already. It's about how to be saved. by faith in Him (using the metaphor of entering the gate, which is Him).
Those whom He has not foreknown don't even receive that special and personal call.
This is a different passage and context altogether.
Exactly. They were sheep before they went through the gate. Some were His and some were not. The ones who were His, He called by name and they went through the gate. Those who were not His did not.
According to Jesus, there were 3 kinds of sheep:
1. His sheep and other sheep of His
2. not His sheep
3. THE sheep, for which He died.
Calvinists should have a big problem with the fact that Jesus only used the words "the sheep" when He spoke of dying for sheep, but He also noted those that were His and those that were not His in the same context.
If Christ only died for the so-called elect, He would have said He died for His sheep.
No - in order to be His sheep they must have been given to Him by His Father and drawn by His Father and thus believe on Him when He calls their name.
Everyone knows that even Calvinist who claim that only the elect will enter through Him.
Let's not try to mash different contexts and passages together to make a point.
It is not a logical deduction that "my sheep" coming after vs. 9 tells us how they became His sheep.
What is logical is that v.9 indicates how to be saved. And we know that His sheep are saved. That's the logical connection.
I said:
"My point isn't that they become 'sheep' through faith. It's that THE sheep become His sheep by believing in Him."
No - that is how His sheep are born again and later sanctified. It is not how they became His sheep.
You're reading quite a bit into the text that's not there.
Your posts are obviously influenced by that theology.
btw, you also said this:
"I do agree with much of Calvinism - even as I disagree with much of Calvinism."
Do you realize that this is contradictory? The word "much" means at least more than half. There's no way to agree with more than half of Calvinism and disagree with more than half of Calvinism.
If your agreement and disagreement is 50%, then just say so.
But I do believe in being elected by the Father and drawn to the Son because of that election and believing on the Son for salvation.
Do you believe that election is being chosen for salvation?
In that particular area - Calvinists are correct as it is very easily supported from the Bible. And no - I won't prove it to you
In the area of election, I hope you answer my question above.
As to refusal to prove it to me, it's pretty obvious that this is just a ruse, a dodge, a way to avoid having to prove what you know that you cannot prove.
I CAN prove that election is NOT about salvation. Not even close.
as I know by now how you operate.
Ah, yes. Throw in a little bit of ad hominem.
No - they become saved because they are His sheep given to Him by the Father from the foundation of the world.
Except Eph 1:4 says nothing about becoming saved. The word "us" is actually defined in Eph 1:19 as "us who believe". So, God chooses believers (us) to be holy and blameless. That is lifestyle. That is service.
They become "saved" through faith.
You really didn't need to use quote marks around 'saved'. Paul never did in Eph 2:8.
But only because they heard the voice of God when He called His sheep by name and they followed Christ because of that inward call.
What verse are you thinking of when you make this statement?
Talk about inventing a doctrine because of bias.
Well, I just proved who God chose in Eph 1:4. Believers.
Here is a list of examples in the Bible described as "elect" or "chosen". Let's see which ones were chosen for salvation.
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4
a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 6:70
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election
Acts 9:15
Was Jesus chosen for salvation? Obviously not.
Were any angels chosen for salvation? The Bible is totally silent on whether salvation by any means is related to angels.
Were all of the nation of Israel saved in the OT? Again, obviously not.
Believers, by definition from Eph 2:8, are already saved, so obviously not chosen for salvation.
Was Judas chosen for salvation? Obviously not.
Was Paul's experience on the Damascus road chosen for salvation? No.
But, don't believe me. But DO believe what Paul himself said about that.
Paul was elected to service:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is
my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told
all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.
Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet.
I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in
my service to God.
1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—
as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us:
as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.
Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be
a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me
so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man
Gal 3:7 - I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.
Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power
Col 1:25 -
I have become its (the Church)
servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15
1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy,
appointing me to his service.
1 Tim 2:7 - And
for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and
called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel
I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
What we see is that Paul equated his election (being chosen) with an appointment to service.
The Calvinist view of election unto effectual calling to the Son is correct and yours is simply forced into the Word because of a bias against anything that smacks of Calvinism.
Sure. Just read the verses above and say that again. Again, don't take my word for it, but DO take Paul's word for it.
Yes I am getting your point and it is extremely bias.
Yes, you've said that.
The hearing of their name (as in the inward call expressed in Calvinism) is what makes them come to Jesus.
No it isn't. This is what the Bible says about "what makes them come to Jesus".
John 6
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘
They will all be taught by God.’
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
The red words tell us that God has taught all. Not some.
The blue words tell us that those who have listened and learned from the Father COME TO ME.
Calvinism is quite correct in saying that hose chosen of God receive the inward call and come to Jesus.
No they aren't. Those who listened and learned from the Father come to Jesus.
Good you have made your point. Everyone is "a" sheep.
In John 10. Not everywhere.
Would that your bias was not so strong that you reject anything that the Calvinists happen to have right.
It's not bias. It's false doctrine that I point out.
I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. I am of Calvin. I am of Arminius. I am of Catholicism. I am of Free Grace.
No you're not. You were never taught by Apollos. And it seems real clear to me that you aren't familiar with free grace theology at all.
Such bias and pride is a terrible way to divide the truth of God's Word IMO.
More ad hominem noted.
Obviously you feel that you've go it all figured out and have no need to consider other views. So be it.
I post on what I know from Scripture. You can call it whatever you want.
btw, have you ever thoroughly studied the 3 words in the word group related to 'election'? I have. The noun, the verb, and the adjective. I have studied ALL of the verses for ALL of these 3 words.
And what I found is that NONE of them use election/chosen with salvation.
Period.