Born Again: The Lost Meaning of John 3:3

Jeff Wickham

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In Christian circles the term "born again" is very common, so much so that I believe sometimes it has lost the force of its original meaning. This video explores four key lessons from the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus about being born again. And in it, we also explore a derelict house, since it is a good illustration of certain aspects of being born again.

What is most meaningful to you about being born again?

 

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What is most meaningful to you about being born again?
We are born into the Kingdom of God by hearing, understanding and acting on the Word of God.

God will see to it that His new creations will in time do those things.

Being born the first time was a natural progression of having been generated in secret by your earthly father. In due time you began your life in this world.

Being born again by acting on the Word when it is preached to you is a natural progression of having been regenerated in secret by your Heavenly Father.

To me, the most meaningful thing about being born again is that I have not been made alive in the Spirit through acting on the Word. Rather I have acted on the Word because I was made alive in the Spirit by God for that reason.

By grace you have been saved - through faith. Not by faith you have been saved through grace.

The grace of God precedes our salvation.

If, to some, that translates to Reformed theology rather that so called Arminian theology so be it. That's a matter of labels.

But one thing I do know is that the classic SDA concept of us living out our lives and then going into some kind of soul sleep only to have our lives examined at some future time and being made a new creature if we managed to please God in this life - is diametrically opposed to the simple concept of being "born again" that Jesus proposed to Nicodemus.
 
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Jeff Wickham

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We are born into the Kingdom of God by hearing, understanding and acting on the Word of God.

I think this sentence is a nice summary. In my mind, it all comes down to the right attitude, one where we wholeheartedly seek to know and do God's will, depending on Him for strength. This is repentance. A person who adopts this attitude may not have amassed any good works, but given time and God's nurture, they will grow into everything He wants them to be. I believe this is what Jesus was referring to in John 5:24 when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
 
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I think this sentence is a nice summary. In my mind, it all comes down to the right attitude, one where we wholeheartedly seek to know and do God's will, depending on Him for strength. This is repentance. A person who adopts this attitude may not have amassed any good works, but given time and God's nurture, they will grow into everything He wants them to be. I believe this is what Jesus was referring to in John 5:24 when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."


Good Day, Jeff

Seeing Scripture is clear none seek after God and Jesus is the seeker you have your emphasis in the incorrect place... Remember his sheep hear is voice hearing voice of the Shepard is a "sheepish" thing to do and his sheep do so with out fail ( they believe, and have eternal life) every single one of them. They were given to the Son by the Father for the explicit purpose of being raised up the Son in accordance with the Fathers will... he gives his life for his sheep. Read the rest of John to get the whole story line.

In Him,

Bill
 
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FreeGrace2

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Good Day, Jeff

Seeing Scripture is clear none seek after God and Jesus is the seeker you have your emphasis in the incorrect place... Remember his sheep hear is voice hearing voice of the Shepard is a "sheepish" thing to do and his sheep do so with out fail ( they believe, and have eternal life) every single one of them.
After charging the OP with misplacing his emphasis, you also misplace. In your case, you have placed the cause and effect of sheep and the result.

By saying "his sheep do so without faith" and making that "believe and have eternal life", it seems you are suggesting that they are sheep first. iow, his sheep "believe and have eternal life".

But the Bible shows a different order. In order to even BE His sheep, they must believe.

We see that in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

This is HOW one becomes one of His sheep; by entering though Him, or faith in Him, obviously.

They were given to the Son by the Father for the explicit purpose of being raised up the Son in accordance with the Fathers will... he gives his life for his sheep. Read the rest of John to get the whole story line.

In Him,

Bill
I agree that reading the rest of John will result in the "whole story".

You quoted part of John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Many people use John 6:44 to support the idea that God chooses who will believe - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

However, the very next verse clarifies exactly who "comes to Jesus" -
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

IOW, only those who listened and learned from what the Father taught will come to Jesus.

So, God doesn't choose who will believe, but rather chooses whom to save, which is different.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
 
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After charging the OP with misplacing his emphasis, you also misplace. In your case, you have placed the cause and effect of sheep and the result.

By saying "his sheep do so without faith" and making that "believe and have eternal life", it seems you are suggesting that they are sheep first. iow, his sheep "believe and have eternal life".

But the Bible shows a different order. In order to even BE His sheep, they must believe.

We see that in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

This is HOW one becomes one of His sheep; by entering though Him, or faith in Him, obviously.


I agree that reading the rest of John will result in the "whole story".

You quoted part of John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Many people use John 6:44 to support the idea that God chooses who will believe - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

However, the very next verse clarifies exactly who "comes to Jesus" -
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

IOW, only those who listened and learned from what the Father taught will come to Jesus.

So, God doesn't choose who will believe, but rather chooses whom to save, which is different.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Good Day, Free Grace2

Never said that

One does not become sheep they are sheep they are of God and do sheepy things. Doing sheepy things does not make one a sheep.

My seep hear my voice, they know me and I know them..

DA Carson has some very good work on John and the Premiere Greek New Testament exergete in the world today you may find that helpful The Pillar NT Commentary.


Many people 6:44"to support the idea that God chooses who will believe" can you give me a few (primary sources please) I have seen none.

The ones coming were identified way back in the passage verse 37- (the given ones come)
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


This verse speaks to the universal inability of man to come "no man Can".
Listened and learned are 2 words... They were taught (one word) God is a very effective teacher.

They come because they were given, and they everyone of them were taught.

Recommend reading Drawn by the Father by James White fine exergesis of the whole passage.

In Him,

Bill
 
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FreeGrace2

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Good Day, Free Grace2

Never said that
Implications, my good man.

One does not become sheep they are sheep they are of God and do sheepy things.
Actually, the Bibles says differently. Jesus noted 3 kinds of sheep in John 10; His sheep, other sheep of His, and those not of His sheep.

No one is born a sheep of Jesus'. And as I pointed out from John 10:9, one becomes one of Jesus' sheep by entering through Him. That's how one becomes saved.

And to be saved is to be one of His sheep.

But you are invited to prove from Scripture that no one becomes one of His sheep. And you must stay in John 10 for that, since that is the context.

Doing sheepy things does not make one a sheep.
That seems to be your implication from your last post.

My seep hear my voice, they know me and I know them..
2 ways to understand v.27.

1. A statement about what Jesus' sheep DO.

2. A statement of policy; what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO.

DA Carson has some very good work on John and the Premiere Greek New Testament exergete in the world today you may find that helpful The Pillar NT Commentary.
I haven't found Calvinistic commentaries to be very helpful.

Many people 6:44"to support the idea that God chooses who will believe" can you give me a few (primary sources please) I have seen none.
I didn't say that people have said such, but in my well over a decade of forum activity, I have had discussions with many people who used John 6:44 as a proof text to show that God chooses who to save. And because of their reformed leanings, they understand that the Bible says salvation is by faith. But they view faith as a byproduct of being "chosen" in the first place.

So the ultimate conclusion from their view is that God indeed does choose who will believe.

When I've pointed that out to Calvinists, they typically just bristle because they don't like their view put in those exact words.

The ones coming were identified way back in the passage verse 37- (the given ones come)
And I explained specifically who the "ones coming" are; from 6:45. Those who listened and learned from the Father.

Simple question; does everyone in a classroom listen and learn? Of course not.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Amen!

This verse speaks to the universal inability of man to come "no man Can".
There is no "universal inability" to believe in Christ. That is proven by the verses that plainly state that men REFUSE TO BELIEVE (2x in Acts) and REFUSE TO REPENT (3x in Revelation).

John 5:40 - yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

It should be obvious to anyone that refusal clearly implies ability, not inability.

To claim to refuse to do something that you cannot do is absurdity. Since you cannot do something, it is irrelevant to claim you refuse to do what you cannot do.

Listened and learned are 2 words... They were taught (one word) God is a very effective teacher.
I guess you never attended classes? The Bible NEVER even suggests that everyone taught by God learned from Him. v.45 is clear; God has taught everyone, but it is ONLY those who listened and learned that come to Him.

They come because they were given, and they everyone of them were taught.
You're not reading the text right. They come because they listened and learned (6:45). That is in black and white. Please don't twist the Scriptures.

Again, here is 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. ’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So, "all will be taught by God" isn't just the L&Lers. It's ALL. Everyone.

How do we know that God has taught everyone?

Rom 1:19-20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Color coded explanation:

The red words refer to what God has taught everyone; His very existence, and His invisible qualities, His eternal powere and divine nature. And His teaching came through His creation.

The blue words refer to the fact that those who never listened and learned don't have an excuse.

It is obvious that those who did listen and learn don't need an excuse.

Recommend reading Drawn by the Father by James White fine exergesis of the whole passage.
Sure. Another Calvinist.
 
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Implications, my good man.


Actually, the Bibles says differently. Jesus noted 3 kinds of sheep in John 10; His sheep, other sheep of His, and those not of His sheep.

No one is born a sheep of Jesus'. And as I pointed out from John 10:9, one becomes one of Jesus' sheep by entering through Him. That's how one becomes saved.

And to be saved is to be one of His sheep.

But you are invited to prove from Scripture that no one becomes one of His sheep. And you must stay in John 10 for that, since that is the context.


Good day,

"that no one" my logic teacher once assured my trying to prove a negative is a fool erred, that is often proposed by the ignorant... So I will be skipping this one.

That seems to be your implication from your last post.


2 ways to understand v.27.

1. A statement about what Jesus' sheep DO.

2. A statement of policy; what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO.


I haven't found Calvinistic commentaries to be very helpful.

Do not belive the text or grammer supports the second option.

Yes he may infact be a Calvinist, but that being said he is second to nine in the world when it comes to NT Greek, and usage of the OT in the NT.

I didn't say that people have said such, but in my well over a decade of forum activity, I have had discussions with many people who used John 6:44 as a proof text to show that God chooses who to save. And because of their reformed leanings, they understand that the Bible says salvation is by faith. But they view faith as a byproduct of being "chosen" in the first place.

So the ultimate conclusion from their view is that God indeed does choose who will believe.

When I've pointed that out to Calvinists, they typically just bristle because they don't like their view put in those exact words.

Consider that you use of such words do not truly express what they believe

Again you said "Many people use John 6:44 to support the idea that God chooses who will believe "

I am asking who????

And I explained specifically who the "ones coming" are; from 6:45. Those who listened and learned from the Father.

Simple question; does everyone in a classroom listen and learn? Of course not.


Amen!

6:45 is an OT quote from Isa ( recommend DA Carson NT use of the OT) .. simply said

it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me

Taught would be the main verb... hearing and learning would be dependent verbs. You are unable to hear and learn if there is no teacher... and God his the best his teaching serves his purpose every single time.



There is no "universal inability" to believe in Christ. That is proven by the verses that plainly state that men REFUSE TO BELIEVE (2x in Acts) and REFUSE TO REPENT (3x in Revelation).

John 5:40 - yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

It should be obvious to anyone that refusal clearly implies ability, not inability.

To claim to refuse to do something that you cannot do is absurdity. Since you cannot do something, it is irrelevant to claim you refuse to do what you cannot do.
I disagree maybe we need a literal translation YLT- (no man is able) Universal inability of man.

no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;

You can run to John 5 and find a self proclaimed contraction, but the text is real clear. The people in John 6 where the same people in John 5 he really helps us understand they can not so they do not, and they do not because they can not

I guess you never attended classes? The Bible NEVER even suggests that everyone taught by God learned from Him. v.45 is clear; God has taught everyone, but it is ONLY those who listened and learned that come to Him.


You're not reading the text right. They come because they listened and learned (6:45). That is in black and white. Please don't twist the Scriptures.

Again, here is 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. ’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So, "all will be taught by God" isn't just the L&Lers. It's ALL. Everyone.

How do we know that God has taught everyone?

Rom 1:19-20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Color coded explanation:

The red words refer to what God has taught everyone; His very existence, and His invisible qualities, His eternal powere and divine nature. And His teaching came through His creation.

The blue words refer to the fact that those who never listened and learned don't have an excuse.

It is obvious that those who did listen and learn don't need an excuse.


Sure. Another Calvinist.

It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me

They will all... and everyone who are the same group of people.


Do you think God can set about to teach and fail to do so effectively?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The result of Gods teaching of "them" is to overcome their inability to come to Christ, because unless he does so or they will be left in their inablilty. His teaching draws them like a sword from it's sheath, like drawing the water from the well.

Not sure I understand your use of Romans.. you seem to make an assertion and read Romans into you assertion.

In Him,

Bill
 
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FreeGrace2

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Good day,

"that no one" my logic teacher once assured my trying to prove a negative is a fool erred, that is often proposed by the ignorant... So I will be skipping this one.
A better explanation would be, "so I will be DODGING this one".

And who cares what your illogic teacher once "assured" you of?

I said:
"2 ways to understand Jn 10:27.

1. A statement about what Jesus' sheep DO.

2. A statement of policy; what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO."
Do not belive the text or grammer supports the second option.
What you believe is of no consequence to me. What the Bible SAYS is of the greatest consequence to me.

Anyone can throw out these useless and meaningless opinions about something.

If you have some actual evidence to support your opinion, that would be fine.

To refute my explanation, one would have to prove that my explanation is patently false.

Yes he may infact be a Calvinist, but that being said he is second to nine in the world when it comes to NT Greek, and usage of the OT in the NT.
Do you mean he ranks #8 or #10? I'm not sure given your vague comment about his ranking.

btw, those with a strong bias can't hide behind original languages. They STILL see the Word with biased eyes.

I said:
"I didn't say that people have said such, but in my well over a decade of forum activity, I have had discussions with many people who used John 6:44as a proof text to show that God chooses who to save. And because of their reformed leanings, they understand that the Bible says salvation is by faith. But they view faith as a byproduct of being "chosen" in the first place.

So the ultimate conclusion from their view is that God indeed does choose who will believe.

When I've pointed that out to Calvinists, they typically just bristle because they don't like their view put in those exact words."
Consider that you use of such words do not truly express what they believe
No, thank you. I will not consider your opinion. My wording is EXACTLY what they think. They just don't like to admit it.

Then I'll ask you a question. If God chooses who to save by first of all regenerating them so they will believe the gospel, how is that NOT choosing who will believe?

Again you said "Many people use John 6:44 to support the idea that God chooses who will believe "

I am asking who????
I told you.

6:45 is an OT quote from Isa ( recommend DA Carson NT use of the OT) .. simply said
I guess you don't like the little dots we call periods when you end a thought.

So what? Of course 6:45 is from the OT. And it is crystal clear as to what it says and means. I even gave support for what God has taught EVERYONE from the NT, so why didn't you acknowledge that?

it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me

Taught would be the main verb... hearing and learning would be dependent verbs. You are unable to hear and learn if there is no teacher... and God his the best his teaching serves his purpose every single time.
OK, no problem. But you are ignoring or failing to grasp the obvious fact here. And I even gave an example in my post about this.

In any classroom, it is a given that all the attendees are being taught. But, it should be just as obvious that not all the students are listening and learning. That was my point, which you chose to ignore.
 
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A better explanation would be, "so I will be DODGING this one".

And who cares what your illogic teacher once "assured" you of?

I said:
"2 ways to understand Jn 10:27.

1. A statement about what Jesus' sheep DO.

2. A statement of policy; what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO."

What you believe is of no consequence to me. What the Bible SAYS is of the greatest consequence to me.

Anyone can throw out these useless and meaningless opinions about something.

If you have some actual evidence to support your opinion, that would be fine.

To refute my explanation, one would have to prove that my explanation is patently false.


Do you mean he ranks #8 or #10? I'm not sure given your vague comment about his ranking.

btw, those with a strong bias can't hide behind original languages. They STILL see the Word with biased eyes.

I said:
"I didn't say that people have said such, but in my well over a decade of forum activity, I have had discussions with many people who used John 6:44as a proof text to show that God chooses who to save. And because of their reformed leanings, they understand that the Bible says salvation is by faith. But they view faith as a byproduct of being "chosen" in the first place.

So the ultimate conclusion from their view is that God indeed does choose who will believe.

When I've pointed that out to Calvinists, they typically just bristle because they don't like their view put in those exact words."

No, thank you. I will not consider your opinion. My wording is EXACTLY what they think. They just don't like to admit it.

Then I'll ask you a question. If God chooses who to save by first of all regenerating them so they will believe the gospel, how is that NOT choosing who will believe?


I told you.


I guess you don't like the little dots we call periods when you end a thought.

So what? Of course 6:45 is from the OT. And it is crystal clear as to what it says and means. I even gave support for what God has taught EVERYONE from the NT, so why didn't you acknowledge that?


OK, no problem. But you are ignoring or failing to grasp the obvious fact here. And I even gave an example in my post about this.

In any classroom, it is a given that all the attendees are being taught. But, it should be just as obvious that not all the students are listening and learning. That was my point, which you chose to ignore.


Good Day, Free

I noticed the format of my post was really bad... did not use QUOTE tag effectively.

1. You used Romans 1 to support your idea that the Everyone in Jn 6:45 means every single person.
2. You even supposed that inability is not taught in Jn 6:45.
3.Then you derive from 6:45 something that no one in my knowledge who hold to the doctrines of Grace ever said, it is based on your own subjective fourm activity.

6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Yup dodge the fallacy... pure nonsense.

Should have read second to none.. he is the absolute best NT Greek scholar in the world.


The they restricts the everyone the they are the collection of him(s) that the father draws. You seem to be enamored with this classroom depiction for some unknown reason.

So let’s deal with that God is a very effective teacher if it is his attention to Draw by teaching for the explicit purpose of Christ raising up he cannot fail, that is what makes him God. Romans is dealing with General revelation he has made Himself know though the observation of creation

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them not taught it to them.


... That is not teaching, for the explicit purpose of raising up Jn 6:45,

But rather explaining how the wrath is revealed by showing ( Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse)

YLT (Youngs literal translation)- no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;


Not able= inability plain and simple.

You ask does God choose who will believe and try to somehow say it has any thing to do with Jn 6:45.
When clearly it does not no matter what your 20 yrs has shown you.

John 6:45 teaches that man is not able to come to Christ unless (God the father external to them does something) to overcome their inability. Namely draw them for the explicit purpose for Christ to raise them up.

He does this by teaching them and he is an effective teacher those he teaches learn and hear from the father... those that he does not teach do not her and learn. Teaching is the main verb, while hearing and learning are dependent upon being taught by the teacher. If the teacher does not teach there is nothing to hear or learn.

Question.. Can God fail to effectively teach his creation? Do you agree the direct effect of the drawing is the raising up by Christ?

did I miss anything??

In Him,

Bill
 
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Good Day, Free

I noticed the format of my post was really bad... did not use QUOTE tag effectively.
OK.

1. You used Romans 1 to support your idea that the Everyone in Jn 6:45 means every single person.
You need to prove the opposite from Rom 1:19-20. I sincerely wish you luck.

2. You even supposed that inability is not taught in Jn 6:45.
OK, 2 point:
1. prove that refusal to an action includes an inability to that action.
2. I never supposed anything about Jn 6:45. Why would Jesus quote the OT about "all will be taught by God" if He didn't really mean that?

The point of 6:45 is that God has taught all (everyone). But go ahead, and prove that to be incorrect, if you can.

The point of Rom 1:19-20 is that because God HAS revealed Himself and His attributes, no one has any excuse for not recognizing that and being thankful to Him.

3.Then you derive from 6:45 something that no one in my knowledge who hold to the doctrines of Grace ever said, it is based on your own subjective fourm activity.
I certainly hold to the doctrine of God's grace. We are saved by grace. Salvation is a gift. We have the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is grace.

You can call it whatever you want. But I've engaged with Calvinists for well over a decade and my experiences with them have formed my view of them.

6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Yup dodge the fallacy... pure nonsense.
What's your point by quoting these 3 verses? v.45 is a clear statement about who God has taught. And it is "ALL". No other descriptive added. So, therefore, "all" means exactly that; all people. If the "all" were only of a segment of humanity, then Jesus would have said so.

But the real problem you're having is that not everyone who is being taught are listening and learning. Again I ask you: have you every been in a classroom? Did all the students in that classroom listen and learn from the teacher?

The answer is quite obvious.

Should have read second to none.. he is the absolute best NT Greek scholar in the world.
I know what you meant. Just having a bit of fun with your typo. However, a biased person is a biased person, even geniuses and Calvinists and Arminians.

The they restricts the everyone the they are the collection of him(s) that the father draws. You seem to be enamored with this classroom depiction for some unknown reason.
Wow. You sure shredded that passage! Jesus' point in v.45 is that the Father teaches everyone. And then He makes the specific point that it's ONLY the ones who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.

So let’s deal with that God is a very effective teacher if it is his attention to Draw by teaching for the explicit purpose of Christ raising up he cannot fail, that is what makes him God.
I am not buying your shredding of the passage that way.

The "they" in v.45 is in Isa 54:13 - All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.

Check out the context for v.13.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer.
9 “To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.
10 Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.
11 “Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted, I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise,your foundations with lapis lazuli.
12 I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of sparkling jewels, and all your walls of precious stones.

Jesus' point was that God the Father will teach all. And those who L & L will come to Jesus.

Please don't try to argue that everyone under a teacher listens and learns. That would be extremely absurd and irrational.

Romans is dealing with General revelation he has made Himself know though the observation of creation
Right. Until a person is aware of God, he cannot be led to Christ. Rom 1:19-20 is the proof of the FACT that God has taught everyone in the human race, and that no one has an excuse for NOT LISTENING AND LEARNING by being thankful to Him.

I refer you to Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

If this doesn't convince you, I suppose nothing will.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them not taught it to them.
What do you think a teacher is doing in a classroom if not showing facts, etc to their students???

... That is not teaching, for the explicit purpose of raising up Jn 6:45,
It is clear to me that you are not very familiar with what teaching is.

But rather explaining how the wrath is revealed by showing ( Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse)
Again, how are teachers able to teach if not by EXPLAINING to the students?

YLT (Youngs literal translation)- no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

Not able= inability plain and simple.
Those who did NOT L & L do not come to Christ. Plain and simple.

You ask does God choose who will believe and try to somehow say it has any thing to do with Jn 6:45.
When clearly it does not no matter what your 20 yrs has shown you.
OK, the opinions of 20 years of dealing with Calvinists don't matter. Good to know.

What is clear to me is that you can't even figure out WHY John 6:45 IS related directly to the fact that God does NOT choose who will believe.

btw, do you yourself believe that God chooses who will believe? iow, that it is God alone who chooses to save, via regeneration so that they can and will believe?

John 6:45 teaches that man is not able to come to Christ unless (God the father external to them does something) to overcome their inability. Namely draw them for the explicit purpose for Christ to raise them up.
Nope. There is nothing about inability here.

And the Bible says that men REFUSE to believe several times in Acts and REFUSE to repent several times in Revelation.

Again, you need to prove that a refusal to perform can include an inability to perform.

He does this by teaching them and he is an effective teacher those he teaches learn and hear from the father...
That's NOT what 6:45 says. You are paraphrasing, and doing a very poor job of it.

It does NOT say everyone He teaches listened and learned. That is wrong.

those that he does not teach do not her and learn.
Again, ALL the students are in the classroom, but NOT ALL the students listen and learn.

But you don't want to admit that. Even though EVERYONE who has ever been through school knows the TRUTH of what I have said.

Teaching is the main verb, while hearing and learning are dependent upon being taught by the teacher.
True. But doesn't change the fact that I've pointed out.

If the teacher does not teach there is nothing to hear or learn.
Irrelevant to what Jesus said.

Question.. Can God fail to effectively teach his creation?
Oh, you really do miss the point It's not God's fault (ineffective teaching) that some students didn't listen and learn. That is ALL on them. It's their choice.

That's WHY Paul added the idea that even though God has revealed Himself to everyone, everyone has NO EXCUSE for not recognizing Him and being thankful.

Do you agree the direct effect of the drawing is the raising up by Christ?
Sure do. John 12:32 speaks to that. But people have to L & L before they are drawn.
 
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BBAS 64

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OK.


You need to prove the opposite from Rom 1:19-20. I sincerely wish you luck.


OK, 2 point:
1. prove that refusal to an action includes an inability to that action.
2. I never supposed anything about Jn 6:45. Why would Jesus quote the OT about "all will be taught by God" if He didn't really mean that?

The point of 6:45 is that God has taught all (everyone). But go ahead, and prove that to be incorrect, if you can.

The point of Rom 1:19-20 is that because God HAS revealed Himself and His attributes, no one has any excuse for not recognizing that and being thankful to Him.


I certainly hold to the doctrine of God's grace. We are saved by grace. Salvation is a gift. We have the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is grace.

You can call it whatever you want. But I've engaged with Calvinists for well over a decade and my experiences with them have formed my view of them.


What's your point by quoting these 3 verses? v.45 is a clear statement about who God has taught. And it is "ALL". No other descriptive added. So, therefore, "all" means exactly that; all people. If the "all" were only of a segment of humanity, then Jesus would have said so.

But the real problem you're having is that not everyone who is being taught are listening and learning. Again I ask you: have you every been in a classroom? Did all the students in that classroom listen and learn from the teacher?

The answer is quite obvious.


I know what you meant. Just having a bit of fun with your typo. However, a biased person is a biased person, even geniuses and Calvinists and Arminians.


Wow. You sure shredded that passage! Jesus' point in v.45 is that the Father teaches everyone. And then He makes the specific point that it's ONLY the ones who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.


I am not buying your shredding of the passage that way.

The "they" in v.45 is in Isa 54:13 - All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.

Check out the context for v.13.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer.
9 “To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.
10 Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.
11 “Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted, I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise,your foundations with lapis lazuli.
12 I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of sparkling jewels, and all your walls of precious stones.

Jesus' point was that God the Father will teach all. And those who L & L will come to Jesus.

Please don't try to argue that everyone under a teacher listens and learns. That would be extremely absurd and irrational.


Right. Until a person is aware of God, he cannot be led to Christ. Rom 1:19-20 is the proof of the FACT that God has taught everyone in the human race, and that no one has an excuse for NOT LISTENING AND LEARNING by being thankful to Him.

I refer you to Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

If this doesn't convince you, I suppose nothing will.


What do you think a teacher is doing in a classroom if not showing facts, etc to their students???


It is clear to me that you are not very familiar with what teaching is.


Again, how are teachers able to teach if not by EXPLAINING to the students?


Those who did NOT L & L do not come to Christ. Plain and simple.


OK, the opinions of 20 years of dealing with Calvinists don't matter. Good to know.

What is clear to me is that you can't even figure out WHY John 6:45 IS related directly to the fact that God does NOT choose who will believe.

btw, do you yourself believe that God chooses who will believe? iow, that it is God alone who chooses to save, via regeneration so that they can and will believe?


Nope. There is nothing about inability here.

And the Bible says that men REFUSE to believe several times in Acts and REFUSE to repent several times in Revelation.

Again, you need to prove that a refusal to perform can include an inability to perform.


That's NOT what 6:45 says. You are paraphrasing, and doing a very poor job of it.

It does NOT say everyone He teaches listened and learned. That is wrong.


Again, ALL the students are in the classroom, but NOT ALL the students listen and learn.

But you don't want to admit that. Even though EVERYONE who has ever been through school knows the TRUTH of what I have said.


True. But doesn't change the fact that I've pointed out.


Irrelevant to what Jesus said.


Oh, you really do miss the point It's not God's fault (ineffective teaching) that some students didn't listen and learn. That is ALL on them. It's their choice.

That's WHY Paul added the idea that even though God has revealed Himself to everyone, everyone has NO EXCUSE for not recognizing Him and being thankful.


Sure do. John 12:32 speaks to that. But people have to L & L before they are drawn.


Good Day, Free

As always thanks... not sure where to go from here..

I have dealt as best I can with the pronoun usage and chain of singular to plural construction of the grammar. In a wider context my taking away the verse indicators for clarity.

I do agree with it being his children which is not everyone created as you suppose... Jn 8

I did not say ineffective ... I said all are not being taught I do not agree with your assertion.

John 12:32... Has to do with the way he died: ( I hate verse distinctions) it messes with the written text and in some cases the grammar construction.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.


Not all all connected with the Drawing of the Father for the explicit purpose of Christ raising them up in Jn 6.

In Him,

Bill
 
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FreeGrace2

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Good Day, Free

As always thanks... not sure where to go from here..
And as always, you're quite welcome.

I have dealt as best I can with the pronoun usage and chain of singular to plural construction of the grammar.
But you took a pronoun from John 6:44 and rammed it into v.45, which was a quote from the OT, so obviously they aren't the same.

In a wider context my taking away the verse indicators for clarity.
How does this help the "wider context"?

I do agree with it being his children which is not everyone created as you suppose... Jn 8
So are you suggesting that Romans 1:19-20, combined with Heb 11:6 doesn't include all of humanity as to whom God has revealed Himself?

I did not say ineffective ... I said all are not being taught I do not agree with your assertion.
Still not grasping the obvious. But I understand why not.

The Bible says "ALL" will be taught. So your assertion is unbiblical. I'm going with what the Bible says, not what you assert.

Back to the example of any classroom. The teacher teaches the whole class. That's everyone. But there are those who L & L and those who don't L & L.

Are you actually denying this FACT?

John 12:32... Has to do with the way he died: ( I hate verse distinctions) it messes with the written text and in some cases the grammar construction.
It ALSO has to do with the EFFECT of His death. It was designed to draw all people to Himself, obviously. A verse about unlimited atonement, among many.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.
Yep. And the EFFECT as well.

Not all all connected with the Drawing of the Father for the explicit purpose of Christ raising them up in Jn 6.
Why do you say that?

Do you think the "drawing of the Father" is somehow different than "drawing all people to Myself"??

Please explain.

Thanks.
 
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.........it seems you are suggesting that they are sheep first. iow, his sheep "believe and have eternal life".
If he is suggesting that - he would be right. His sheep hear His voice as sheep not as monkeys or bears.
......... But the Bible shows a different order. In order to even BE His sheep, they must believe.
That simply isn't true. His sheep hear His voice while existing as sheep and not as something else.
......... We see that in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.
Of course - everyone knows that.
......... They will come in and go out, and find pasture. This is HOW one becomes one of His sheep; by entering though Him, or faith in Him, obviously.
Simply not true - either scripturally or logically.

Cars go in and out of garages and dogs go in and out of dog houses. They don't become cars and dogs because they have gone in and out of garages or dog houses. The go in and out of garages and dog houses because they are cars or dogs.

While it is obviously true that no one experiences salvation until they in Christ - only those the Father has given to the Son and who are drawn to the Son become part of the body of Christ.

Before you tell me that everyone is drawn to the Son by the Father - that has nothing to do with your flawed logic that says that another kind of animal somehow becomes a sheep by spending the night in a sheep pen.

I may start acting like a sheep either because it is a sheep or it may start acting like a sheep because it has been hanging around sheep for so long. But a different animal does not become a sheep by hanging around sheep or (as some would have it - evolving into a sheep).
 
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I said:
".........it seems you are suggesting that they are sheep first. iow, his sheep "believe and have eternal life"."
If he is suggesting that - he would be right. His sheep hear His voice as sheep not as monkeys or bears.
v.9 of ch 10 tells us how a sheep becomes one of His; by entering through Him.

9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

In ch 10, Jesus identifies 3 kinds of sheep.

1. His sheep, meaning Jewish believers in Him - v.14,15,16
2. not His sheep, meaning Gentile believers in Him - v.26
3. THE sheep, meaning all of humanity, who He died for - v.7,8,11,12,13,15,

I said:
" But the Bible shows a different order. In order to even BE His sheep, they must believe."
That simply isn't true. His sheep hear His voice while existing as sheep and not as something else.
I haven't suggested that they are something else. In fact, all of humanity is described as "sheep", as I showed above, with citations.

In ch 10, salvation comes from entering through Him, the gate to the sheepfold. This is a choice. And every mention of "My sheep" comes AFTER v.9. So we know HOW one of THE sheep becomes His sheep; by entering (faith in Him) through Him.

I said:
" They will come in and go out, and find pasture. This is HOW one becomes one of His sheep; by entering though Him, or faith in Him, obviously."
Simply not true - either scripturally or logically.
I understand your bias. As a Calvinist, you think God chose in eternity past who He wanted to get saved (the elect). But because your definition of total depravity goes much further than the Bible by claiming that unsaved man cannot believe in Christ, Calvinism had to create their version of the doctrine of election. Which goes something like this: Since totally depraved man cannot believe, God had to choose who would believe, and then regenerate him/her in order for them to believe.

Yet, none of this can be supported from the Bible.

Cars go in and out of garages and dogs go in and out of dog houses. They don't become cars and dogs because they have gone in and out of garages or dog houses. The go in and out of garages and dog houses because they are cars or dogs.
Sorry that you're not paying attention here, but in ch 10, the entire human race is referred to as THE sheep. Jesus also noted "My sheep" and "not My sheep".

My point isn't that they become 'sheep' through faith. It's that THE sheep become His sheep by believing in Him.

While it is obviously true that no one experiences salvation until they in Christ - only those the Father has given to the Son and who are drawn to the Son become part of the body of Christ.
Yeah, there's that doctrine of election ala Calvinism. Except biblical election isn't even about salvation. It IS all about service. Jesus Christ is described as The Elect One. Was He chosen for salvation? Hardly.

The Jewish nation was chosen as God's people. Was every Jew chosen for salvation. Just read the OT and find that many were NOT saved.

Were the elect angels of 1 Tim 5:21 chosen for salvation? The Bible is totally silent on even whether salvation of any kind applies to angels.

Are you getting my point?

Before you tell me that everyone is drawn to the Son by the Father - that has nothing to do with your flawed logic that says that another kind of animal somehow becomes a sheep by spending the night in a sheep pen.
As I've now made crystal clear, I NEVER EVER suggested any such change from one animal to another in John 10. All people are referred to as sheep.

But don't forget what Jesus said in John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

And I am totally familiar with John 6:44, and the fact that not all people will be drawn to Christ. However, we learn from the next verse, v.45, that only those who listened and learned (not those chosen as Calvinism claims) will come to Jesus.

I may start acting like a sheep either because it is a sheep or it may start acting like a sheep because it has been hanging around sheep for so long. But a different animal does not become a sheep by hanging around sheep or (as some would have it - evolving into a sheep).
I'm sorry you misunderstood my previous post. Again, you can let go of your rant about animals becoming sheep. That's another passage altogether. You know, goats and sheep.

But go ahead and just try to find ANY mention of goats in John 10.

Instead, you will find 3 kinds of SHEEP:

1. His sheep, Jewish believers, and other sheep of His, Gentile believers
2. not His sheep, Jewish unbelievers
3. THE sheep, all of humanity, for which He died. As proven above.
 
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thomas15

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I notice in this thread that FreeGrace2 effectively uses the example of students in a classroom to make a valid point.

Therefore I ask the question, is it not ironic that a poster with the screen name "His student" chimes in with:

That simply isn't true. His sheep hear His voice while existing as sheep and not as something else.

As a side note, it has taken me 42 years of collecting books of theology and commentaries and grammar and history to realize that every single one of them are compiled by flawed humans and thus contain a bias or even flat out errors. Only one book on my shelf is perfect.
 
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His student

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I notice in this thread that FreeGrace2 effectively uses the example of students in a classroom to make a valid point. Therefore I ask the question, is it not ironic that a poster with the screen name "His student" chimes in with:
In what way is it ironic that I say that sheep go through the sheep gate and do not go in as wolves only to become sheep because they went in?
As a side note, it has taken me 42 years of collecting books of theology and commentaries and grammar and history to realize that every single one of them are compiled by flawed humans and thus contain a bias or even flat out errors.....
Me a well. I've been saved for some 61 years and striving for a proper view of theology for over 30. Even theologians I respect a great deal misspeak and are even flat out wrong in some cases.
.... Only one book on my shelf is perfect.
You go that right.:)
 
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v.9 of ch 10 tells us how a sheep becomes one of His; by entering through Him.
Actually it says that those who are His sheep already (so much so that He calls them by name) will go through the gate and follow Him. Those whom He has not foreknown don't even receive that special and personal call.
In ch 10, Jesus identifies 3 kinds of sheep.
1. His sheep, meaning Jewish believers in Him - v.14,15,16
2. not His sheep, meaning Gentile believers in Him - v.26
3. THE sheep, meaning all of humanity, who He died for - v.7,8,11,12,13,15,
..., all of humanity is described as "sheep", as I showed above, with citations
Exactly. They were sheep before they went through the gate. Some were His and some were not. The ones who were His, He called by name and they went through the gate. Those who were not His did not.
I said:
" But the Bible shows a different order. In order to even BE His sheep, they must believe."
No - in order to be His sheep they must have been given to Him by His Father and drawn by His Father and thus believe on Him when He calls their name.
In ch 10, salvation comes from entering through Him, the gate to the sheepfold. This is a choice.
Everyone knows that even Calvinist who claim that only the elect will enter through Him.
And every mention of "My sheep" comes AFTER v.9. So we know HOW one of THE sheep becomes His sheep; by entering (faith in Him) through Him.
It is not a logical deduction that "my sheep" coming after vs. 9 tells us how they became His sheep.
I said:
" They will come in and go out, and find pasture. This is HOW one becomes one of His sheep; by entering though Him, or faith in Him, obviously."
No - that is how His sheep are born again and later sanctified. It is not how they became His sheep.
I understand your bias. As a Calvinist, you think God chose in eternity past who He wanted to get saved (the elect). But because your definition of total depravity goes much further than the Bible by claiming that unsaved man cannot believe in Christ, Calvinism had to create their version of the doctrine of election. Which goes something like this: Since totally depraved man cannot believe, God had to choose who would believe, and then regenerate him/her in order for them to believe.
I am not a Calvinist.

But I do believe in being elected by the Father and drawn to the Son because of that election and believing on the Son for salvation.

In that particular area - Calvinists are correct as it is very easily supported from the Bible. And no - I won't prove it to you as I know by now how you operate.:)
My point isn't that they become 'sheep' through faith. It's that THE sheep become His sheep by believing in Him.
No - they become saved because they are His sheep given to Him by the Father from the foundation of the world. They become "saved" through faith. But only because they heard the voice of God when He called His sheep by name and they followed Christ because of that inward call.
Yeah, there's that doctrine of election ala Calvinism. Except biblical election isn't even about salvation. It IS all about service. Jesus Christ is described as The Elect One. Was He chosen for salvation? Hardly. The Jewish nation was chosen as God's people. Was every Jew chosen for salvation. Just read the OT and find that many were NOT saved. Were the elect angels of 1 Tim 5:21 chosen for salvation? The Bible is totally silent on even whether salvation of any kind applies to angels. Are you getting my point?
Talk about inventing a doctrine because of bias.

The Calvinist view of election unto effectual calling to the Son is correct and yours is simply forced into the Word because of a bias against anything that smacks of Calvinism.

Yes I am getting your point and it is extremely bias.
And I am totally familiar with John 6:44, and the fact that not all people will be drawn to Christ. However, we learn from the next verse, v.45, that only those who listened and learned (not those chosen as Calvinism claims) will come to Jesus.
The hearing of their name (as in the inward call expressed in Calvinism) is what makes them come to Jesus.

Calvinism is quite correct in saying that hose chosen of God receive the inward call and come to Jesus.
I'm sorry you misunderstood my previous post. Again, you can let go of your rant about animals becoming sheep. That's another passage altogether. You know, goats and sheep.
Good you have made your point. Everyone is "a" sheep.

The point I'm making is that some sheep are called by name because they have been given to the Son by the Father and some do not receive that inward call.

All those God so calls will respond to the gospel and be saved.

Those who receive only the outward call will not.

We can agree to disagree here.

I do agree with much of Calvinism - even as I disagree with much of Calvinism.

Would that your bias was not so strong that you reject anything that the Calvinists happen to have right.

I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. I am of Calvin. I am of Arminius. I am of Catholicism. I am of Free Grace.

Such bias and pride is a terrible way to divide the truth of God's Word IMO.

Obviously you feel that you've go it all figured out and have no need to consider other views. So be it.
 
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