Born Again: The Lost Meaning of John 3:3

fhansen

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There is nothing in John 3:4-7 that mentions baptism.
Well it probably is speaking of baptism. Again:
"Given all the other references to water baptism in the New Testament, I think the innocent view automatically tends towards that. A child's mind wouldn't make the leap to amniotic fluid."
And while your interpretation is probably plausible enough, its still just speculation and I'd again submit that it's not a jump that a child's mind would make. Either way, Jesus both modeled this new practice of baptism and commanded it. And the ancient churches, east and west, practiced it as such since the beginning.
There is nothing in John 3:4-7 that mentions baptism.Jesus is teaching about being born again.
Yes, occurring as we have a change of heart, believing, repenting, and being baptized. God doesn't need to use anything, including our faith, in order to save us, but He has His normative ways of achieving that. And He tells us what we need to do. At any rate, baptism is a public profession and act of faith, which is why it's called the "sacrament of faith". For anyone hearing and understanding Christs commands, it's God's will that we receive it.
 
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JLB777

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Well it probably is speaking of baptism.

Actually it’s not probably speaking of baptism.


It’s clearly referring to birth.

Natural Birth and Spiritual Birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:6


No one is born again because they are baptized in water.


People are baptized in water after they believe.





JLB
 
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fhansen

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Actually it’s not probably speaking of baptism.


It’s clearly referring to birth.
No, it's not clear at all- a few mental gymnastics are required to make it fit your interpretation in fact. And it would be a bit redundant anyway for our Lord to tell us that one must be born physically first, and then spiritually. The first assertion would be too obvious to bother with.
Natural Birth and Spiritual Birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:6


No one is born again because they are baptized in water.
Thank you for for opinion-and it's a novel one. I don't know off hand of any early fathers, having, as they did, a greater vantage point than any of us today in terms of knowing the faith that was passed down from the earliest disciples, who would agree with you. So here's the opinion of a few of them, but realize that the full list is very long, with similar understandings among many, many fathers.

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit , they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ ” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 61 ).

“‘And dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ . It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Irenaeus, Fragment 34 ).

“No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Tertullian, Baptism 12:1 ).

“The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 ).
 
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JLB777

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No, it's not clear at all- a few mental gymnastics are required to make it fit your interpretation in fact. And it would be a bit redundant anyway for our Lord to tell us that one must be born physically first, and then spiritually. The first assertion would be too obvious to bother with.


A simple read of the context of His explanation and the actual words He used makes it clear, that Jesus is teaching Nicodemus about Spiritual Birth, using Natural Birth as an example.




Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:3-6


“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Jesus plainly explains what He means in verse 5 by what He says in verse 6.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Born of water=Natural Birth; Born of the flesh

Born of the Spirit=Spiritual Birth;That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


Earthly things = natural birth

Heavenly Things = spiritual birth.


People are baptized in water, after they are saved; born again.


We are born again by believing (obeying) the Gospel.


We are not born again by being dunked in water.




JLB
 
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JLB777

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No, it's not clear at all- a few mental gymnastics are required to make it fit your interpretation in fact. And it would be a bit redundant anyway for our Lord to tell us that one must be born physically first, and then spiritually. The first assertion would be too obvious to bother with.

Thank you for for opinion-and it's a novel one. I don't know off hand of any early fathers, having, as they did, a greater vantage point than any of us today in terms of knowing the faith that was passed down from the earliest disciples, who would agree with you. So here's the opinion of a few of them, but realize that the full list is very long, with similar understandings among many, many fathers.

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit , they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ ” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 61 ).

“‘And dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ . It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Irenaeus, Fragment 34 ).

“No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Tertullian, Baptism 12:1 ).

“The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 ).

Thank you for taking the time to cite these extra biblical sources.




JLB
 
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fhansen

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Thank you for taking the time to cite these extra biblical sources.




JLB
No problem. Those sources can help preserve people from making wildly novel private misinterpretations of the bible-or at least prompt them to reconsider rationally after such interpretations are embraced. Unfortunately, however, facts are often inconvenient and we may tend to cling to our preferred viewpoints to support a particular theology regardless of Christianity's historical understanding.
 
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JLB777

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No problem. Those sources can help preserve people from making wildly novel private misinterpretations of the bible

Unfortunately these extra biblical sources are not scripture, but the private interpretations of men.


Here is what Jesus plainly said -


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


  • That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
  • and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Two different “births” are mentioned here, a natural birth and a spiritual birth.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’”


This is a misquote of the words of Jesus Christ.


Jesus did not say... Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit.


We don’t know if Iranaeus misquoted Jesus, or if the person who wrote your reference misquoted


Jesus said born of water, not born again of water.


John used a variation of this phrase again in 1 John to describe natural birth.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.


This is testifying of the virgin birth.

Came by water is a reference to natural birth.

Came by water and blood is a reference to supernatural birth.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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We are baptized because we are born again.

We are not born again because we are baptized.


Otherwise water baptism is for unbelievers.



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


  • lest they should believe and be saved.




JLB
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What is most meaningful to you about being born again?
Jesus said "you must be born again". Simple, true, eternal, life, obediently joyful babies(little ones) , honest, single eye upon the Father (not looking at worldly things, not impressed nor imprinted on the world any more) , "on the ARK" (in Jesus) , no longer destined for destruction with all the world - the sons of disobedience (born again - son of God) not born again= sons of disobedience.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The condition for receiving eternal life is hear and obey His Voice, in which we follow Him; Follow -
This is a conflation of several verses. No verse says this.

The condition for presently possessing eternal life is to believe in Christ.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Now, what is the result of being given eternal life?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

These facts are irrefutable.

His Gospel, His Commandments, His Teachings.

This results in receiving eternal life.
This is nothing other than a works salvation type of theology. The same as the Pharisees believed.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
The astute student of the word will readily see that v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, and v.28 is a very clear statement about the RESULT of being given eternal life: they shall never perish.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yes, trusting Jesus, trusting the Father in heaven , this is truth, it is His Word and Plan and Salvation: >>>
The condition for receiving eternal life is hear and obey His Voice, in which we follow Him; Follow -
His Gospel, His Commandments, His Teachings.
This results in receiving eternal life.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
=======================================================

THis, however, is blatantly false, indicating a very serious lack of trusting Jesus I think >>>
This is nothing other than a works salvation type of theology. The same as the Pharisees believed.
 
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JLB777

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This is a conflation of several verses. No verse says this.

The condition for presently possessing eternal life is to believe in Christ.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Now, what is the result of being given eternal life?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

These facts are irrefutable.


This is nothing other than a works salvation type of theology. The same as the Pharisees believed.


The astute student of the word will readily see that v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, and v.28 is a very clear statement about the RESULT of being given eternal life: they shall never perish.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


How can a brother who hates his brother, still have eternal life remaining in him?




JLB
 
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JLB777

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Yes, trusting Jesus, trusting the Father in heaven , this is truth, it is His Word and Plan and Salvation: >>>
=======================================================

THis, however, is blatantly false, indicating a very serious lack of trusting Jesus I think >>>


How is obeying the Lord, somehow not trusting Him?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


  • the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

How can a brother who hates his brother, still have eternal life remaining in him?JLB
Dear brother, the verse doesn't say that eternal life is taken from anyone for murder, as it seems you must think.

But the better question is HOW anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ also claim that those given eternal life CAN perish.

Especially since Jesus Christ specifically said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - And I given them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

What is abundantly clear is that the CAUSE of never perishing is to be given eternal life.

It's that simple. Really.
 
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JLB777

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Dear brother, the verse doesn't say that eternal life is taken from anyone for murder, as it seems you must think.

But the better question is HOW anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ also claim that those given eternal life CAN perish.

Especially since Jesus Christ specifically said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - And I given them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

What is abundantly clear is that the CAUSE of never perishing is to be given eternal life.

It's that simple. Really.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Please explain how a brother who hates his brother, still has eternal life remaining in him, since the scripture so plainly says -

  • no murderer has eternal life abiding in him



JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Please explain how a brother who hates his brother, still has eternal life remaining in him, since the scripture so plainly says -
no murderer has eternal life abiding in him
I'm always pleased to explain the simple facts of Scripture.

Since the undeniable fact is that those who believe HAVE (as in current possession) eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47), and that Jesus Christ gives eternal life (John 10:28a), and that He very clearly and straightforward said those He gives eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28b), it is also an undeniable fact that once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

So, obviously 1 Jn 3:15 doesn't say a believer who murders loses eternal life. In fact, it CAN'T say that, or what Jesus said would be a LIE, and we know that Jesus NEVER lies.

So, what does your fav verse mean? That's the question.

The key is found in the concept of "abiding", as I've frequently explained previously. Moreover, John's concept of "abiding" is always that it is in a reciprocal relationship. Recall what Jesus said in John 15:4, "abide in Me as I abide in you."

Here is the point: a "reciprocal relationship" is another way to express FELLOWSHIP.

A marriage, which in God's economy is a PERMANENT relationship, may or MAY NOT have a "reciprocal relationship" in that PERMANENT relationship.

But I recall what you have said about "fellowship", so my explanation will not satisfy you.

It seems all you want is to believe that salvation can be lost. In spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

And, as always, if I've posted anything that is untrue, PLEASE take what is untrue and provide an explanation of WHY and HOW it is untrue.

And, as always, I don't expect an explanation. Just more quoting of your fav verse.
 
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In Christian circles the term "born again" is very common, so much so that I believe sometimes it has lost the force of its original meaning. This video explores four key lessons from the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus about being born again. And in it, we also explore a derelict house, since it is a good illustration of certain aspects of being born again.

What is most meaningful to you about being born again?


First, I want to say, grace be unto you in the name of Jesus Christ and I hope you are doing well in the Lord.

Second, I believe we are saved by both God's grace through faith (Justification), and by works of faith (or Sanctification). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14); And we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So I agree, we need to put to death the misdeeds of the body so we can live (Romans 8:13). I agree that if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually) (Romans 8:13). I also believe it is God who does the good work through us (Philippians 2:12). It is not our work alone. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So we cannot look into a mirror and flex our muscles, and yell for others to come quickly to see how good we look. Only the Lord gets all the glory and praise for any good work done in our lives. It appears we may agree on this; I am not sure.

Three, as for being born again:

The parable or phrase (like "born again") is a comparison to something that is within our real world (as I am sure you are aware of). Jesus accepted the Canaanite woman's extended add on parable that talked about how even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table. Sure, it was her faith in the Lord that Jesus accepted her parable, but she also was making a rational real world comparison to defend her faith in the Lord. She did not talk about some non-existent martians on Mars as an example. She related her real world experience as to tie in what Jesus said in his parable. When I hear people tell me that their baby is born, I am not thinking about the maturation process, but I am thinking about how their baby came into this world. Being born is a one time act. There is even a "birth certificate" to tell us when we are born. This birth certificate did not include the maturation process. It only lists the time and date on when a person was born. This is why I believe being "born again" as Jesus says is a one time event or act.

I believe we are "born again" (receive our new nature) when we genuinely accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, seek His forgiveness, and believe on His death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation. We must have a genuine godly sorrow and be truly broken by God's Word. We are born of the Spirit in that moment when this happens. We are born of water (the Scriptures) when this happens. Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the communicated Word (the Scriptures) is related to water (i.e. the washing of the water of the Word). Now, yes. I agree that Ephesians 5:25-27 is talking about Progressive Sanctification by the Spirit by the Scriptures, but I believe this word is letting us know that "water" is related to God's Word (the Scriptures). For Peter says we are born, not corruptible seed but we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the Word of God (Scripture) (See: 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:1-3).

Now, yes, 1 Peter 1:22 appears to defend your viewpoint on being "born again" (that being born again is a process) but I believe that would destroy the analogy of what we know being born into this world actually means. We purified our souls by obeying the truth (Scripture) because we are able to do so because of the new birth (i.e. God's grace). For remember what Paul said? He said that he was able to labor more than his brethren because of the grace of God that was within him (1 Corinthians 15:10). Paul did a lot of bad stuff to believers prior to His encounter with Jesus. When Paul was forgiven of these sins, he felt joyful and grateful. This is what moved Paul to labor more than his brethren. Remember when the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus's feet? She did so because her many sins were forgiven. She was grateful and it reflected in her actions (Luke 7:36-47).

Four, I agree with the SDA church on the importance of holiness, and that they teach the Trinity, and that they teach Non-Resistance. But I do not agree with them on their founder's false prophecies (Ellen G. White), and I do not agree with the SDA's teaching that the Saturday Sabbath is a binding command under the New Covenant. Colossians 2 makes it clear that the ordinances were nailed to the cross, and that we are not to judge others based on the Sabbath. Meaning, we are not to judge others if they are keeping the Sabbath or not. The OT Sabbath command was tied with the judicial law of death if it was not kept. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed; And there is no command in the New Testament that repeats the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath command. It's not a moral law. Moral laws are laws a person knows to do instinctively (Romans 2:14) (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.). From my perspective: If one is not following the Bible exactly, they are walking on dangerous ground. I am not sure if all SDA think that the keeping of the Sabbath is a salvation issue or not. If so, it's very serious to go back to the Old Law so as to be justified by it. Paul says that if we seek to be justified by the Law (the 613 laws of the Law of Moses as a whole) we have fallen from grace. That is not something I want to mess with personally. Yes, do not murder, do not covet, etc. have been repeated by our Lord Jesus Christ. The Law is lawful if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). But the Old Law is no more. We do not follow the OT ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, and the animal sacrifices (if the temple gets rebuilt).
 
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