Who is "Morning star"?

[-Luca]

Sure .... he knows a lot about Gods word (and about humans) distorts Gods Word all the time. Very very deceiving. How else to draw those of faith away from God? He's no "dumb bunny" .... also he still thinks he can ... replace the most high.

But ... we know better ;o)

Genesis 3

3 Now the serpent (satan) was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Yep .. still using the same old tactics ... nothing new here.

God created Lucifer with free will. Of course God can see the future but is it really that simple? Do you think that God can see hundreds, potentially thousands of alternate futures? I always wonder whether God knew for certain that Lucifer would rebel against him, or just a foreseeable future among many different other futures that could happen.

I always wondered this because free will makes it a lot more complex since a persons behaviour, action or thoughts can change unpredictably thus, there could be different pathways of the future.

 

[eleos1954]

God created Lucifer with free will. Of course God can see the future but is it really that simple? Do you think that God can see hundreds, potentially thousands of alternate futures? I always wonder whether God knew for certain that Lucifer would rebel against him, or just a foreseeable future among many different other futures that could happen.

I always wondered this because free will makes it a lot more complex since a persons behaviour, action or thoughts can change unpredictably thus, there could be different pathways of the future.

The future is eternity with God ... and the only way to that is through Jesus. He is the ONLY pathway.

Yes God knew Lucifer would rebel against him .... he knows everything.

The plan of salvation was put in place BEFORE creation.

Ephesians 1:4

Good News Translation
4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love

A lot of things about the heavenly future that we would like to know are not specifically disclosed ... God reveals to us what we need to know .... not everything we would like to know.

Imagine living in a world with out sin? No death, no sorrow of any kind? Living with God himself .. on the new earth He will create.

He created (creates) everything ... no need for "alternate futures".

That ... within itself is going to be amazing!!!! AMEN!!!

 

[-Luca]

The future is eternity with God ... and the only way to that is through Jesus. He is the ONLY pathway.

Yes God knew Lucifer would rebel against him .... he knows everything.

The plan of salvation was put in place BEFORE creation.

Ephesians 1:4

Good News Translation
4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love

A lot of things about the heavenly future that we would like to know are not specifically disclosed ... God reveals to us what we need to know .... not everything we would like to know.

Imagine living in a world with out sin? No death, no sorrow of any kind? Living with God himself .. on the new earth He will create.

He created (creates) everything ... no need for "alternate futures".

That ... within itself is going to be amazing!!!! AMEN!!!

After the new Earth has been created, is it still possible to sin? Do you think there is a probability that there will be rebellions and downfalls in the future? Do you think that in the future, God will create a new life form other than humans and angels?

 

[eleos1954]

After the new Earth has been created, is it still possible to sin? Do you think there is a probability that there will be rebellions and downfalls in the future? Do you think that in the future, God will create a new life form other than humans and angels?

There will be no sin on the new earth or ever again. No ... no downfalls whatsoever.

Some things we know. God Himself will dwell on the new earth with us.

There will be animals and such.

Likely very kindred to ... like the Garden of Eden (creation before the fall of mankind)
God is BIG on restoration.

Don't know about new life forms ... certainly can if He chooses to.

Heres a few things .... that gives some insight

Revelation 21:1-5

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

Isaiah 11

5Righteousness will be the belt around His hips,
and faithfulness the sash around His waist.
6The wolf will live with the lamb,
and the leopard will lie down with the goat;
the calf and young lion and fatling will be together,a
and a little child will lead them.
7The cow will graze with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The infant will play by the cobra’s den,
and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.
9They will neither harm nor destroy
on all My holy mountain,
for theearth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the sea is full of water.

 

[-Luca]

There will be no sin on the new earth or ever again. No ... no downfalls whatsoever.

Some things we know. God Himself will dwell on the new earth with us.

There will be animals and such.

Likely very kindred to ... like the Garden of Eden (creation before the fall of mankind)
God is BIG on restoration.

Don't know about new life forms ... certainly can if He chooses to.

Heres a few things .... that gives some insight

Revelation 21:1-5

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

Isaiah 11

5Righteousness will be the belt around His hips,
and faithfulness the sash around His waist.
6The wolf will live with the lamb,
and the leopard will lie down with the goat;
the calf and young lion and fatling will be together,a
and a little child will lead them.
7The cow will graze with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The infant will play by the cobra’s den,
and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.
9They will neither harm nor destroy
on all My holy mountain,
for theearth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the sea is full of water.

Thank you very much. Honestly, this new Earth sounds really beautiful and it’s interesting to know that Jesus would be there too. God bless.

 

[JackRT]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the parable we call the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I am very grateful for this post sir, thankyou.

Well on behalf of what ever wisdom God has been gracious enough to impart unto me; you're welcome.

And P.S. I'm female. 48 years old with a teenage son.

In the beginning you mentioned the "work gospel", what is this?

A works gospel is any theology that says "You have to do X; in order to get right with God before He'll save you; or if you don't do X, you'll lose your salvation."

And since you're asking questions about angels. Here's a "run down" of the gospel from God's perspective.

"All right, peeps of the Trinity, let's make a universe."

This is another hypothesis; but it seems this is the case, because of all theories of where evil originated from; this one makes the only logical sense.

Error #1 - Evil originated as some cast off character trait of God's. There is no shadow of turning in God. He does not possess evil. The proof that this is the case was that He was able to create anything to begin with. A house divided can not stand; so a God who had any degree of evil would not be able to create anything because He'd be in constant conflict.

Error #2 - God created Adam with an inherent nature to transgress. This error hearkens back to error #1. A God who does not possess evil within Himself does not create something that does.

So, theory on the origin of evil:

God knew as part of possessing the knowledge of good and evil; that as soon as He created anything the theoretical opposite of Him would become part of that creation. This idea comes from the laws of physics. To every action is an equal and oppisit reaction.

Now since God is an eternally existent entity; the "opposite" of all of His attributes only existed in theory. Now God possessed that knowledge, but being by nature the entity that He is, could not be corrupted by that knowledge. Anything He created though could be, because it was not of the same nature He Himself was. So as soon as God "did" something, the theoretical opposite of what He was, becomes part of what He creates. And this is what I believe is the origin of evil. It is the natural reaction to God's action of creating something where there once was only Him.

Now what God creates has an origin point; (not from everlasting to everlasting), it has limits of time and space; (not omnipresent), it has limits of the energy it is capable to expending; (not omnipotent), it has limits in it's capacity of knowledge and wisdom; (not omniscient). And because of all these limits; everything that God created had the capability of being corrupted. The consequence of that corruption is death. (not immortal).

So God knowing this was going to happen; had to "figure out" a way to counter act that. The only way He could do it was to become part of the creation; thus the incarnation. So God designs a created entity to be His image bearer and this is where humanity comes from. They are created male and female because God knows they need the capacity to reproduce because God knows eventually death is going to "get them". He knows the fall is coming; that's part of being omniscient.

Now is there some place in this current course of time that God created a universe on some other dimension that was never capable of being corrupted? That's possible. We know that's possible because He will recreate this universe incorruptible. But in order to get to that step; He has to take "evil" out of the equation.

And taking evil out of the equation is the "primary purpose" of the atonement. The "secondary purpose" was to deal with the consequence of disobedience. The consequence of disobedience is "death" (the wrath of God, coupled with severance of the relationship between Him and the creation, ultimately resulting in the physical death of all carbon based life; so God had to contend with those perimeters.

So, "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Eden. Note it's not the tree of good and evil; it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Evil existed in Adam and Eve's environment; they just had no knowledge of it, nor the consequence of its existence until they transgressed.

If my hypothesis is correct; this means "evil" existed from the very first time: "In the beginning God...."

So God knowing this; had to come up with a plan to prevent evil from destroying everything God made. The plan was to become part of the creation because evil is incapable of consuming God; simply because of what God is!

So before the foundations of the world. Before He even creates anything; He plans out what He will do to overcome evil. God plans out His redemption plan, including all who'd become redeemed through the course of time and God actually accomplishes this atoning process in God's space that is without time. Now how He does that? I don't know. Revelation though does tell us that Jesus was the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world". So, this is why the Scripture says those who are atoned for (those who are elect) are chosen and predestine to that salvation from the foundations of the world. Not a very popular doctrine in some circles; but certainly Scriptural.

And here is where this comes "full circle" of your question: "What is a work's gospel?"

God plans out and executes His entire redemption plan outside of the actions / choices of human (or any other) entities. Scripture never tells us how or why God chose those He would redeem; other than it's not based on anything they did or didn't do. All of humanity bears the same probability of being elect; because none of us are worthy of redemption.

If we got what was fair and what we all deserved, we would all be condemned for our sin.

Now I'll come back and answer the rest of your questions as well as I want to explain how the redemption plan unfolded; and what actually happened to Jesus "in real time". Now of course trying to explain that, entails explaining how God deals with the independent decision making capacity of created beings. Not just angels and humans but also animals. All are capable of making choices that are independent of the choices, desires of other entities. If you've ever tried to train domesticated animals; you know exactly what I'm talking about. LOL (Cats being the pinnacle of "I'm going to do it my way." of the domesticated animal world.)

I'll get back to you with the rest of it. I'm off to a small group Bible study right now.

 

[JackRT]

If you've ever tried to train domesticated animals; you know exactly what I'm talking about. LOL (Cats being the pinnacle of "I'm going to do it my way." of the domesticated animal world.)

Teenagers are the "cats" of the human world.

 

[zoidar]

Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. That anyone would draw that conclusion is, to me, somewhat naive.

It is also interesting note that the Latin translation of "bright morning star" (the planet Venus) is Lucifer. In the Isaiah passage it is used in an ironic and mocking way against the Babylonian king. On the other hand, The Vulgate is the Bible translation by St. Jerome and in Revelation Lucifer is used twice to refer to Jesus. Here, Lucifer or bright morning star is used in the sense that Jesus is bringing light to the world.

Two questions:

1. Why would it be naive to take Isaiah 14 to be about the the devil and the Babylon king anymore than David's psalms is about David and Jesus?

2. Where is Lucifer referring to Jesus in revelation?

 

[zoidar]

Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the parable we call the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil!

Are you sure you have thought this theory through?

 

[JackRT]

Two questions:

1. Why would it be naive to take Isaiah 14 to be about the the devil and the Babylon king anymore than David's psalms is about David and Jesus?

Because the prophet Isaiah himself tells you exactly what he is referring to in Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

note: bolding is mine

2. Where is Lucifer referring to Jesus in revelation?

Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. That anyone would draw that conclusion is, to me, somewhat naive.

It is also interesting note that the Latin translation of "bright morning star" (the planet Venus) is Lucifer. In the Isaiah passage it is used in an ironic and mocking way against the Babylonian king. On the other hand, The Vulgate is the Bible translation by St. Jerome and in Revelation Lucifer is used twice to refer to Jesus. Here, Lucifer or bright morning star is used in the sense that Jesus is bringing light to the world.

Two questions:

1. Why would it be naive to take Isaiah 14 to be about the the devil and the Babylon king anymore than David's psalms is about David and Jesus?

2. Where is Lucifer referring to Jesus in revelation?

It is not naive to understand this portion of Scripture as addressing both the King of Babylon and Satan. This is similar to the situation in Daniel 10:5-13 where an angelic being is said to have been delayed in delivering a message to Daniel by the "prince of Persia" and was assisted by the the arch-angel Michael, "one of the chief princes." So we see the reference of angelic beings as "princes", some in service of God, and others that are powers ultimately the rule behind kingdom's (compare with Ephesians 6:12).

Consider also the beast system of the anti-Christ, which is ruled by a man, but ultimately ruled by the power behind that man, Satan, the serpent of old, the dragon (Revelation 13:2-4, Revelation 12:9 Revelation 20:2).

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the parable we call the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Are you sure you have thought this theory through?

No, this theory was not well considered. The only way it is sustainable is if you reject several portions of Scriptures, conveniently. Consider, as aforementioned in my text above, John's designation of Satan as the dragon, who is the serpent of old who has a host of angels and deceives the whole world, rules the future anti-Christ beast system and is cast into darkness for a thousand years, followed by a brief release before being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10; and again, Revelation 13:2-4, Revelation 12:9 Revelation 20:2).

This is not a "man made" but God-revealed angelic enemy of Himself and His saints. JackRT is speaking his own opinion and not submitting himself to the revelation of Scripture.

 

[zoidar]

Because the prophet Isaiah himself tells you exactly what he is referring to in Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

note: bolding is mine



Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Do you think David knew he was talking about Jesus? I believe David was referring to himself.

Yes to the morning star, not Lucifer. Luficer doesn't mean morning star.

 

[-Luca]

Well on behalf of what ever wisdom God has been gracious enough to impart unto me; you're welcome.

And P.S. I'm female. 48 years old with a teenage son.



A works gospel is any theology that says "You have to do X; in order to get right with God before He'll save you; or if you don't do X, you'll lose your salvation."

And since you're asking questions about angels. Here's a "run down" of the gospel from God's perspective.

"All right, peeps of the Trinity, let's make a universe."

This is another hypothesis; but it seems this is the case, because of all theories of where evil originated from; this one makes the only logical sense.

Error #1 - Evil originated as some cast off character trait of God's. There is no shadow of turning in God. He does not possess evil. The proof that this is the case was that He was able to create anything to begin with. A house divided can not stand; so a God who had any degree of evil would not be able to create anything because He'd be in constant conflict.

Error #2 - God created Adam with an inherent nature to transgress. This error hearkens back to error #1. A God who does not possess evil within Himself does not create something that does.

So, theory on the origin of evil:

God knew as part of possessing the knowledge of good and evil; that as soon as He created anything the theoretical opposite of Him would become part of that creation. This idea comes from the laws of physics. To every action is an equal and oppisit reaction.

Now since God is an eternally existent entity; the "opposite" of all of His attributes only existed in theory. Now God possessed that knowledge, but being by nature the entity that He is, could not be corrupted by that knowledge. Anything He created though could be, because it was not of the same nature He Himself was. So as soon as God "did" something, the theoretical opposite of what He was, becomes part of what He creates. And this is what I believe is the origin of evil. It is the natural reaction to God's action of creating something where there once was only Him.

Now what God creates has an origin point; (not from everlasting to everlasting), it has limits of time and space; (not omnipresent), it has limits of the energy it is capable to expending; (not omnipotent), it has limits in it's capacity of knowledge and wisdom; (not omniscient). And because of all these limits; everything that God created had the capability of being corrupted. The consequence of that corruption is death. (not immortal).

So God knowing this was going to happen; had to "figure out" a way to counter act that. The only way He could do it was to become part of the creation; thus the incarnation. So God designs a created entity to be His image bearer and this is where humanity comes from. They are created male and female because God knows they need the capacity to reproduce because God knows eventually death is going to "get them". He knows the fall is coming; that's part of being omniscient.

Now is there some place in this current course of time that God created a universe on some other dimension that was never capable of being corrupted? That's possible. We know that's possible because He will recreate this universe incorruptible. But in order to get to that step; He has to take "evil" out of the equation.

And taking evil out of the equation is the "primary purpose" of the atonement. The "secondary purpose" was to deal with the consequence of disobedience. The consequence of disobedience is "death" (the wrath of God, coupled with severance of the relationship between Him and the creation, ultimately resulting in the physical death of all carbon based life; so God had to contend with those perimeters.

So, "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Eden. Note it's not the tree of good and evil; it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Evil existed in Adam and Eve's environment; they just had no knowledge of it, nor the consequence of its existence until they transgressed.

If my hypothesis is correct; this means "evil" existed from the very first time: "In the beginning God...."

So God knowing this; had to come up with a plan to prevent evil from destroying everything God made. The plan was to become part of the creation because evil is incapable of consuming God; simply because of what God is!

So before the foundations of the world. Before He even creates anything; He plans out what He will do to overcome evil. God plans out His redemption plan, including all who'd become redeemed through the course of time and God actually accomplishes this atoning process in God's space that is without time. Now how He does that? I don't know. Revelation though does tell us that Jesus was the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world". So, this is why the Scripture says those who are atoned for (those who are elect) are chosen and predestine to that salvation from the foundations of the world. Not a very popular doctrine in some circles; but certainly Scriptural.

And here is where this comes "full circle" of your question: "What is a work's gospel?"

God plans out and executes His entire redemption plan outside of the actions / choices of human (or any other) entities. Scripture never tells us how or why God chose those He would redeem; other than it's not based on anything they did or didn't do. All of humanity bears the same probability of being elect; because none of us are worthy of redemption.

If we got what was fair and what we all deserved, we would all be condemned for our sin.

Now I'll come back and answer the rest of your questions as well as I want to explain how the redemption plan unfolded; and what actually happened to Jesus "in real time". Now of course trying to explain that, entails explaining how God deals with the independent decision making capacity of created beings. Not just angels and humans but also animals. All are capable of making choices that are independent of the choices, desires of other entities. If you've ever tried to train domesticated animals; you know exactly what I'm talking about. LOL (Cats being the pinnacle of "I'm going to do it my way." of the domesticated animal world.)

I'll get back to you with the rest of it. I'm off to a small group Bible study right now.

Thanks for this Mrs, very detailed and in-depth. I understand that we have to have faith in Christ to be saved, but I am confused because of this scripture, ‘Faith without works is dead’, (James 2:1426).

I have a book on the philosophy of God, I read something that made made me realise something, ‘It is impossible for God to remove any evil from this world without thereby producing a worse evil’. I love God with all my heart and I trust him but admittedly I always question why he does things the way he does, or at least plans to.

 

[JackRT]

Luficer doesn't mean morning star.

Lucifer

noun
1. a proud, rebellious archangel, identified with Satan, who fell from heaven.
2. the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star.
3.(lowercase) friction match.

Origin of Lucifer
before 1000; Middle English, Old English < Latin: morning star, literally, light-bringing, equivalent to lūci- (stem of lūx) light + -fer

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I was just listening to some gospel music when something did not sound right at all. The lyrics of the song go like this, "Who am I? That the bright and morning star, would choose to light the way, For my ever wandering heart."

I had always thought that "morning star" refered to Satan...am I mising something here?

It seems Lucifer lost his title when defeated by Jesus. Jesus gained the keys to death and Hell as well.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Thanks for this Mrs, very detailed and in-depth. I understand that we have to have faith in Christ to be saved, but I am confused because of this scripture, ‘Faith without works is dead’, (James 2:1426).

A byproduct of being redeemed is that the Holy Ghost works to produce obedience to God in the life of a believer. He awakens us; and that actually happens before we are even aware of His presence in our lives. What causes any of us to be interested in the gospel? Have you ever really thought about that? How would the "natural man" ever come to understand and be thoroughly convicted of his right and just deserving of God's condemnation? I want redemption. I need the Redeemer; because without being atoned for, I have absolutely no hope!

Natural man is too proud to come to that conviction. And I use the word conviction deliberately. A lot of people can intellectually give ascent to the idea of being a sinner. Who though is genuinely convicted of their own sin? Convicted to the point where they actually repent of it? Not the "Oh I'm sorry"; but they keep repeating the pattern over and over again. When the power to break the chains of sin enters someone's life; that is a supernatural action.

When the spiritual lights come on; we repent of our sin and begin to walk in obedience. If we don't see the process of sanctification happening in our lives; the "faith" we claim to have is meaningless. That's what that verse means.

I have a book on the philosophy of God, I read something that made made me realise something, ‘It is impossible for God to remove any evil from this world without thereby producing a worse evil’. I love God with all my heart and I trust him but admittedly I always question why he does things the way he does, or at least plans to.

It is impossible for God to remove any evil from this world without thereby producing a worse evil?



What is that suppose to mean?

God removes "evil" from this world all the time by removing those who manifest it. He does this through the imperfect application of human justice systems. He does it on a mass scale through things like wars, natural disasters, man made disasters and events such as economic collapses.

All these things serve God's intent to demonstrate His wrath is real. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven....." Those whom the Holy Spirit convicts of their sin repent; and souls are "stolen" out of the kingdom of Satan.

Compare the impact of the gospel on today's world as opposed to ancient empires like Rome. What of "common grace", do you understand has given us the world we now have. The communication you now have with people around the globe on the computer you're typing on is not an accident. Revivals that spring up over the course of the centuries have brought profound changes to human societies. How do you think it is possible that there are 6 plus billion of us on this planet? If it weren't for "common grace" that sets humans at a workable "so much as it lies within you to live at peace with all men"; we would not have ascertained to the advancements that we have. Certainly advancements have the capability to also produce great harm; but look at simply what doors the invention of the Internet has opened for the preaching of the gospel.

We live in interesting times; for sure, for sure!

 

[-Luca]

A byproduct of being redeemed is that the Holy Ghost works to produce obedience to God in the life of a believer. He awakens us; and that actually happens before we are even aware of His presence in our lives. What causes any of us to be interested in the gospel? Have you ever really thought about that? How would the "natural man" ever come to understand and be thoroughly convicted of his right and just deserving of God's condemnation? I want redemption. I need the Redeemer; because without being atoned for, I have absolutely no hope!

Natural man is too proud to come to that conviction. And I use the word conviction deliberately. A lot of people can intellectually give ascent to the idea of being a sinner. Who though is genuinely convicted of their own sin? Convicted to the point where they actually repent of it? Not the "Oh I'm sorry"; but they keep repeating the pattern over and over again. When the power to break the chains of sin enters someone's life; that is a supernatural action.

When the spiritual lights come on; we repent of our sin and begin to walk in obedience. If we don't see the process of sanctification happening in our lives; the "faith" we claim to have is meaningless. That's what that verse means.



It is impossible for God to remove any evil from this world without thereby producing a worse evil?



What is that suppose to mean?

God removes "evil" from this world all the time by removing those who manifest it. He does this through the imperfect application of human justice systems. He does it on a mass scale through things like wars, natural disasters, man made disasters and events such as economic collapses.

All these things serve God's intent to demonstrate His wrath is real. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven....." Those whom the Holy Spirit convicts of their sin repent; and souls are "stolen" out of the kingdom of Satan.

Compare the impact of the gospel on today's world as opposed to ancient empires like Rome. What of "common grace", do you understand has given us the world we now have. The communication you now have with people around the globe on the computer you're typing on is not an accident. Revivals that spring up over the course of the centuries have brought profound changes to human societies. How do you think it is possible that there are 6 plus billion of us on this planet? If it weren't for "common grace" that sets humans at a workable "so much as it lies within you to live at peace with all men"; we would not have ascertained to the advancements that we have. Certainly advancements have the capability to also produce great harm; but look at simply what doors the invention of the Internet has opened for the preaching of the gospel.

We live in interesting times; for sure, for sure!

Thank you for your response. Honestly you are awesome. That quote I mentioned, I was thinking about hell and how God is going to send so many people there, even those who are good people. It makes me really sad to think of it because there are so many people I know, whether it be in school or elsewhere, and it is really painful to think that they would go to hell. Someone could be really kind and warm to you but because they do not accept Christ they will be tormented forever; it breaks me down, even more so when I think of family when it comes to this.

Also, I wanted to ask about how you said God cleanses evil through disasters and such. I am confused because I would not think that God would do such a thing. I feel like that it would bring a lot of pain and suffering and no good at all.

 

[JackRT]

It is impossible for God to remove any evil from this world without thereby producing a worse evil?

This is an example of philosophical overthink. God, being God, has no limitations. God can forgive the unforgivable sin.

 

[GodLovesCats]

There is a clear distinction between the 'morning stars' and the 'sons of God'. The creation of Eve sheds light. Eve is a type of the morning stars. The animals are a type of the 'sons of God'.

God formed the angels out of 'angel stuff', but created Lucifer and the one who became Jesus Christ out of 'God stuff'. So as Eve was created out of the very substance of Adam so were the morning stars created out of the very substance of God.

How can this be? Wouldn't that make Lucifer God's first Son and Jesus hte second?