Who is "Morning star"?

-Luca

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I was just listening to some gospel music when something did not sound right at all. The lyrics of the song go like this, "Who am I? That the bright and morning star, would choose to light the way, For my ever wandering heart."

I had always thought that "morning star" refered to Satan...am I mising something here?
 

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"So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts" 2 Peter 1:19.

Literally-Phosphorus
 
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-Luca

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I never heard that song before.

In Rev it is Jesus.

In Isaiah 14 it is the King of Babylon.

So, Jesus is the likely answer.

I am guessing.

Hi, the song is called "Casting crowns" by Who Am I. I just had a read through urban dictionary, I found this, 'The "morning star" is a title given to Satan in his role as Lucifer. The term was derived from a Biblical passage which identifies a Babylonian god named for that star as having fallen from the throne of heaven for his arrogance. This story was conflated with the story of the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels, especially because most pagan gods are considered aspects of Satan in Christianity.'

I am very confused.
 
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JackRT

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Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. That anyone would draw that conclusion is, to me, somewhat naive.

It is also interesting note that the Latin translation of "bright morning star" (the planet Venus) is Lucifer. In the Isaiah passage it is used in an ironic and mocking way against the Babylonian king. On the other hand, The Vulgate is the Bible translation by St. Jerome and in Revelation Lucifer is used twice to refer to Jesus. Here, Lucifer or bright morning star is used in the sense that Jesus is bringing light to the world.
 
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topher694

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Hi, the song is called "Casting crowns" by Who Am I. I just had a read through urban dictionary, I found this, 'The "morning star" is a title given to Satan in his role as Lucifer. The term was derived from a Biblical passage which identifies a Babylonian god named for that star as having fallen from the throne of heaven for his arrogance. This story was conflated with the story of the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels, especially because most pagan gods are considered aspects of Satan in Christianity.'

I am very confused.
If Lucifer had a job and assignment before he fell, do you think after he fell God would leave that job and assignment vacant? Or perhaps God had someone even better to replace him...
 
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-Luca

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Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. That anyone would draw that conclusion is, to me, somewhat naive.

It is also interesting note that the Latin translation of "bright morning star" (the planet Venus) is Lucifer. In the Isaiah passage it is used in an ironic and mocking way against the Babylonian king. On the other hand, The Vulgate is the Bible translation by St. Jerome and in Revelation Lucifer is used twice to refer to Jesus. Here, Lucifer or bright morning star is used in the sense that Jesus is bringing light to the world.

Sir, thank you very much. This is very useful.
 
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A metaphor can be used in reference to more than one thing. In this case we see "Morning Star," or Venus, or the Greek Phosphorus used as a metaphor for different references within the scriptures.
 
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Lucifer and the one who became Jesus were the 'morning stars' (plural) at the creation of the earth.

Job 38:6-7 King James Version (KJV)

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 
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-Luca

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Lucifer and the one who became Jesus were the 'morning stars' (plural) at the creation of the earth.

Job 38:6-7 King James Version (KJV)

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
I am starting to understand now thanks to many of those here. I could understand how Jesus could be called a "morning star", but I am not sure as to why Lucifer was also given this title. Is this referring to how great of an angel he was?

"When the morning stars sang together", is this referring to all of the angels?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I am starting to understand now thanks to many of those here. I could understand how Jesus could be called a "morning star", but I am not sure as to why Lucifer was also given this title. Is this referring to how great of an angel he was?

"When the morning stars sang together", is this referring to all of the angels?

There is a clear distinction between the 'morning stars' and the 'sons of God'. The creation of Eve sheds light. Eve is a type of the morning stars. The animals are a type of the 'sons of God'.
God formed the angels out of 'angel stuff', but created Lucifer and the one who became Jesus Christ out of 'God stuff'. So as Eve was created out of the very substance of Adam so were the morning stars created out of the very substance of God.
 
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eleos1954

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I was just listening to some gospel music when something did not sound right at all. The lyrics of the song go like this, "Who am I? That the bright and morning star, would choose to light the way, For my ever wandering heart."

I had always thought that "morning star" refered to Satan...am I mising something here?

The word angel means messenger. The word angel throughout the bible is used in several ways ... in referring to the divine, in referring to people and to the heavenly host (angelic beings). When used in correlation with God/Jesus it does in NO WAY diminish the sovereignty, authority or divinity of God/Jesus ... that is of course .. they are NOT created beings.

Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

Angels are called morning stars in Job 38:6-7 when they sang for joy when God created the heavens and the earth. Satan was created as the most beautiful of all God’s angelic beings Ezekiel 28:12-15. Since Satan was the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels before he sinned, it’s appropriate that he is called morning star.

Jesus referred to as the morning star as well .... it depends on the context in which the word angel is being used.
 
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-Luca

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There is a clear distinction between the 'morning stars' and the 'sons of God'. The creation of Eve sheds light. Eve is a type of the morning stars. The animals are a type of the 'sons of God'.
God formed the angels out of 'angel stuff', but created Lucifer and the one who became Jesus Christ out of 'God stuff'. So as Eve was created out of the very substance of Adam so were the morning stars created out of the very substance of God.

But aren't we all created in the image of God? Also, I assumed that Jesus was always with the Father since the beginning. Are you saying that Jesus was created?
 
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-Luca

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The word angel means messenger. The word angel throughout the bible is used in several ways ... in referring to the divine, in referring to people and to the heavenly host (angelic beings). When used in correlation with God/Jesus it does in NO WAY diminish the sovereignty, authority or divinity of God/Jesus ... that is of course .. they are NOT created beings.

Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

Angels are called morning stars in Job 38:6-7 when they sang for joy when God created the heavens and the earth. Satan was created as the most beautiful of all God’s angelic beings Ezekiel 28:12-15. Since Satan was the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels before he sinned, it’s appropriate that he is called morning star.

Jesus referred to as the morning star as well .... it depends on the context in which the word angel is being used.

Thank you very much Mrs, this was very useful. I have a question though, why did God make Lucifer one of the most beautiful and powerful of angels?
 
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eleos1954

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Thank you very much Mrs, this was very useful. I have a question though, why did God make Lucifer one of the most beautiful and powerful of angels?

in "laymens" language ;o)

Lucifer was a covering angel ... a angel of high status in heaven. God creates all his intelligent beings with choice (choice to sin (transgression of Gods laws) or not) otherwise all would be a bunch of "robots" ... well ... lucifer and 1/3 of the angelic beings rebelled against Gods government in heaven .... and then everything has and is playing out from there onward.

According to Ezekiel 28:13, we learn that he is an amazing being to behold: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created."

To dwell in the awesome presence of a perfect and holy God, Lucifer had to be perfect. There was nothing ordinary or plain about his appearance. Adorned with gold and precious stones, he truly fit the name, 'Son of the Morning.' He was a step above the other angels, not only in appearance but also in intellect. Lucifer's wisdom far exceeded that of other angelic beings. He understood the ways of God.

But Lucifer's splendor and beauty did not last forever. While ministering, he began to consider his own position of prominence. Lucifer became prideful (self centeredness) believing that he deserved more than what he already had. He wanted to become like the Most High.

Isaiah 14 reveals the fall of Lucifer from the heights of heaven, which resulted in his status as the creature that he is today:
 
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I am starting to understand now thanks to many of those here. I could understand how Jesus could be called a "morning star", but I am not sure as to why Lucifer was also given this title. Is this referring to how great of an angel he was?

"When the morning stars sang together", is this referring to all of the angels?

Good question. I've studied this and it's a hard one to get an answer on because there's a lot of information we don't really have about these non-carbon based "life forms" called "angels".

Seems though that Satan was an "angel of rank". He was up there in the "high command" (what ever that constituted). So when he fell; he went down with full knowledge of the entire battle plan, so to speak. It was an act of treason upon the highest order and the cause of that fall was pride. Scripture speaks a lot about Satan being prideful.

We often think of "pride" as being boastful and arrogant (which it is) but it's also self righteous. Another poster in this CF had once pointed out that Satan was the best "pharisee" of all time. Yeah, he can be "base of all creatures" morally and ethically; yet his greatest deception is false religions and works gospels. That's where he's most successful in taking down multitudes of people.

So Adam was made in the image of God as the highest carbon based life form to rule this planet. Was Lucifer the "angelic version" of Adam? (I don't know?). In the sense that he apparently ranked close to God of all the orders of created non-carbon based entities called "angels"; yes we could say he was similar to Adam.

Now this is hypothesis upon my part, yet based on different things in Scripture; I believe Lucifer was jealous of Adam. (He was certainly jealous of Christ!) And this is my guess as to what motivated Lucifer to "take down" humanity. There's no redemption plan for angels; so unlike fallen humanity, it seems "angels" who fall become "depraved totally" (as opposed to another theological term that describes the fall as having created in humans "total depravity". "Total depravity" relates to a state of spiritual deadness; yet does not mean to be totally without morals, ethics, or the ability to do human good.)

That is not the same thing though as being "depraved totally"; which I think is what happened to Satan. Satan is a "take no prisoners" "no holds barred", "ends justifies the means", "anything goes" kind of entity. No conscience, no moral restrictions. Any means necessary to destroy every thing that he can possibly destroy with maximum "collateral damage". Merciless. Depraved totally!

And because of this state; God totally reigns over Satan's capacity to carry out destruction. Satan is like "the dark side of the force"; or even the Borg in Star Trek. In the ultimate quest for "perfection"; power becomes the dominant objective to exercise that quest. I don't think the ascertaining of power is actually Satan's ultimate goal; because God is so much greater than just His omnipotence. Satan's desire is to supplant God. Which if you think about that; it's actually a pretty stupid endeavor. How can any created thing compare to an entity who's absolutely infinite in the entirety of His capacity? It's laughable. Not that men and other entities don't try; but it's laughable!

So in that sense "morning star" (being the one who rules the day) has a Divine counterpart (Christ) as well as a created reflective counterpart (Lucifer). Lucifer is spoken of as "the god of this world" and he reigns over a kingdom that's superseded by a greater Kingdom ruled by God himself. Christ was able / given authority to reign over both King/kingdoms by becoming a created entity Himself. So when He was incarnated; (to use the language of Star Trek again) it was like the Borg assimilating an intelligence they suddenly realized they could not control. ("Oh no; we're.... (insert word of choice)!)

So for what my hypotheses are worth; there's my ponderings of what I think possibly happened with Lucifer.
 
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-Luca

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in "laymens" language ;o)

Lucifer was a covering angel ... a angel of high status in heaven. God creates all his intelligent beings with choice (choice to sin (transgression of Gods laws) or not) otherwise all would be a bunch of "robots" ... well ... lucifer and 1/3 of the angelic beings rebelled against Gods government in heaven .... and then everything has and is playing out from there onward.

According to Ezekiel 28:13, we learn that he is an amazing being to behold: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created."

To dwell in the awesome presence of a perfect and holy God, Lucifer had to be perfect. There was nothing ordinary or plain about his appearance. Adorned with gold and precious stones, he truly fit the name, 'Son of the Morning.' He was a step above the other angels, not only in appearance but also in intellect. Lucifer's wisdom far exceeded that of other angelic beings. He understood the ways of God.

But Lucifer's splendor and beauty did not last forever. While ministering, he began to consider his own position of prominence (self centeredness). Lucifer became prideful, believing that he deserved more than what he already had. He wanted to become like the Most High.

Isaiah 14 reveals the fall of Lucifer from the heights of heaven, which resulted in his status as the creature that he is today:
Very well written, I enjoyed reading it! Do you think that Lucifer still has the same qualities you mentioned after he was kicked out from heaven, such as intellect?
 
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eleos1954

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Very well written, I enjoyed reading it! Do you think that Lucifer still has the same qualities you mentioned after he was kicked out from heaven, such as intellect?

Sure .... he knows a lot about Gods word (and about humans) distorts Gods Word all the time. Very very deceiving. How else to draw those of faith away from God? He's no "dumb bunny" .... also he still thinks he can ... replace the most high.

But ... we know better ;o)

Genesis 3

3 Now the serpent (satan) was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Yep .. still using the same old tactics ... nothing new here.
 
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-Luca

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Good question. I've studied this and it's a hard one to get an answer on because there's a lot of information we don't really have about these non-carbon based "life forms" called "angels".

Seems though that Satan was an "angel of rank". He was up there in the "high command" (what ever that constituted). So when he fell; he went down with full knowledge of the entire battle plan, so to speak. It was an act of treason upon the highest order and the cause of that fall was pride. Scripture speaks a lot about Satan being prideful.

We often think of "pride" as being boastful and arrogant (which it is) but it's also self righteous. Another poster in this CF had once pointed out that Satan was the best "pharisee" of all time. Yeah, he can be "base of all creatures" morally and ethically; yet his greatest deception is false religions and works gospels. That's where he's most successful in taking down multitudes of people.

So Adam was made in the image of God as the highest carbon based life form to rule this planet. Was Lucifer the "angelic version" of Adam? (I don't know?). In the sense that he apparently ranked close to God of all the orders of created non-carbon based entities called "angels"; yes we could say he was similar to Adam.

Now this is hypothesis upon my part, yet based on different things in Scripture; I believe Lucifer was jealous of Adam. (He was certainly jealous of Christ!) And this is my guess as to what motivated Lucifer to "take down" humanity. There's no redemption plan for angels; so unlike fallen humanity, it seems "angels" who fall become "depraved totally" (as opposed to another theological term that describes the fall as having created in humans "total depravity". "Total depravity" relates to a state of spiritual deadness; yet does not mean to be totally without morals, ethics, or the ability to do human good.)

That is not the same thing though as being "depraved totally"; which I think is what happened to Satan. Satan is a "take no prisoners" "no holds barred", "ends justifies the means", "anything goes" kind of entity. No conscience, no moral restrictions. Any means necessary to destroy every thing that he can possibly destroy with maximum "collateral damage". Merciless. Depraved totally!

And because of this state; God totally reigns over Satan's capacity to carry out destruction. Satan is like "the dark side of the force"; or even the Borg in Star Trek. In the ultimate quest for "perfection"; power becomes the dominant objective to exercise that quest. I don't think the ascertaining of power is actually Satan's ultimate goal; because God is so much greater than just His omnipotence. Satan's desire is to supplant God. Which if you think about that; it's actually a pretty stupid endeavor. How can any created thing compare to an entity who's absolutely infinite in the entirety of His capacity? It's laughable. Not that men and other entities don't try; but it's laughable!

So in that sense "morning star" (being the one who rules the day) has a Divine counterpart (Christ) as well as a created reflective counterpart (Lucifer). Lucifer is spoken of as "the god of this world" and he reigns over a kingdom that's superseded by a greater Kingdom ruled by God himself. Christ was able / given authority to reign over both King/kingdoms by becoming a created entity Himself. So when He was incarnated; (to use the language of Star Trek again) it was like the Borg assimilating an intelligence they suddenly realized they could not control. ("Oh no; we're.... (insert word of choice)!)

So for what my hypotheses are worth; there's my ponderings of what I think possibly happened with Lucifer.

I am very grateful for this post sir, thankyou. In the beginning you mentioned the "work gospel", what is this?
Do you believe that God never had any intention of forgiving and redeeming angels because their knowledge of God, amongst other things such as wisdom were of a high level?

If Lucifer never turned bad, he never rebelled, and there was peace amongst all of creation, wouldn't that change things drastically. How would that even work? If there is no sin then there is no death. This means that Earth would be home to people dating back to Adam and Eve. In addition, God would not be able to separate those that want to follow him and those that do not. Coming to think of it, if none of it happened then we wouldn't even be talking on here, technology would not have existed etc.

I am sorry if I am going really far with this, I am just very curious and interested on how God works. Again, many thanks for your previous answer :)
 
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