joshua 1 9

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You don't actually know that. Scripture doesn't say that.
Maybe not your interpretation. For example: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be." (Psalm139:16) It is reasonable to say that our first day is the day we are born. If you promote abortion. Because for me life begins at conception and our first day begins before we even make it to the womb.
 
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joshua 1 9

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which is help those who need money
Drug addicts need money to buy their drugs, should we help them? Alcoholics need money to buy alcohol, should we help them? Women need money to kill her baby, should we help her out by giving her money to kill her baby?
 
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SPF

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Maybe not your interpretation. For example: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be." (Psalm139:16) It is reasonable to say that our first day is the day we are born. If you promote abortion. Because for me life begins at conception and our first day begins before we even make it to the womb.
And remind me how this passage and your commentary translate into babies going to heaven?

The fact that this is the best you can come up with, which is going to result in some real magical hermeneutics and really stretching the passage beyond its intent, and make it apply to people that were not like David (meaning, born and living), is such a stretch that if that's the best you can do... I think we can say Scripture isn't clear on the fate of the unborn.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Given their situation, would you say it's moral or immoral for them to have an abortion?
If they abort their baby that baby is going to go to Heaven. If they want to go to Heaven then they are going to have to be reconciled with their child.
 
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SPF

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If they abort their baby that baby is going to go to Heaven. If they want to go to Heaven then they are going to have to be reconciled with their child.
We certainly can hope they're going to Heaven, but Scripture isn't clear on that subject. And if they do get to go to heaven, assuming the parent isn't a Believer, what makes you think they they will have to be reconciled with the child? Is there some passage that says mother's of aborted babies will be forced to face their children during judgment?
 
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joshua 1 9

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The fact that this is the best you can come up with
Nonsense, you must not know me. God is infinite and I can come up with an infinite amount of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. I just keep it short for people that have a short attention span.
 
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SPF

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Nonsense, you must not know me. God is infinite and I can come up with an infinite amount of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. I just keep it short for people that have a short attention span.
Well, I'm glad you think that highly of your knowledge. I would recommend though that you test your extra-biblical thoughts against Scripture.
 
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GodLovesCats

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SPF, the difference I am talking about is a single pregnant woman who is unemployed and raped, not one who is married but somehow was raped anyway. That is the situation where the immorality of abortion of a pregnancy is questionable.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Drug addicts need money to buy their drugs, should we help them? Alcoholics need money to buy alcohol, should we help them? Women need money to kill her baby, should we help her out by giving her money to kill her baby?

Drug addicts need help ending their addictions, which of course requires even more money than the costs of beer and cigarette packs.
 
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joshua 1 9

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what makes you think they they will have to be reconciled with the child?
For one thing I had a dream about my daughter in Heaven. So I have gained understanding from that dream. This is why I know a little bit about the book David tells us about in Psalm 139:15. Because I saw the book God wrote for my daughter in the dream. Also I know that daughter never made it to the womb. I also know she is in Heaven because I saw her there and I even had a conversation with one of the angels that was watching over her.

But lets play this game your way. Lets say this is all fiction. Half the books in the Library are fiction and people still gain understanding from reading novels. So if you want to say this is an allegory or archetype, a metaphor or symbol then that does not really change anything. All of this still has meaning and a practical application to our lives.

I can give you an example in Steinbeck book: "Of mice and men". I have a friend that is very much like the Lenny character in that book. So having read Steinbeck's book helps me to understand my friend. Although we do not have to kill off Lenny. We can choose life and we can choose to redeem him. God has a work that He wants to do in Lenny's life. Just like God has a work that He wants to do in my life and in your life.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Drug addicts need help ending their addictions
Yes and there is an offer on the table right now for $12 billion dollars to buy them prescription drugs to help them with their problems. Should they accept Sacklers offer? How is this going to end their addiction when you are still using drugs to block the receptors in their brain? This is going to prevent the body from healing itself.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Even I would like to know where you got that from?
By definition. Heaven is a place where everyone loves everyone there. If there is one person you do not love in Heaven then you do not get in. This is why we are told to: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those." (Luke6:27)

"leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:24) We need to be reconciled with our brother before we can find acceptance with God.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Yes and there is an offer on the table right now for $12 billion dollars to buy them prescription drugs to help them with their problems. Should they accept Sacklers offer? How is this going to end their addiction when you are still using drugs to block the receptors in their brain? This is going to prevent the body from healing itself.

What does this have to do with abortion?
 
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nanookadenord

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By definition. Heaven is a place where everyone loves everyone there. If there is one person you do not love in Heaven then you do not get in. This is why we are told to: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those." (Luke6:27)

"leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:24) We need to be reconciled with our brother before we can find acceptance with God.

I think you are extrapolating that too far.
 
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SPF

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SPF, the difference I am talking about is a single pregnant woman who is unemployed and raped, not one who is married but somehow was raped anyway. That is the situation where the immorality of abortion of a pregnancy is questionable.
Why does the mother's financial situation have a bearing upon the morality of abortion? The morality of abortion stands or falls with how we understand the nature of the life inside the womb, not the external circumstances of the mother.

How can the financial situation of the mother impact the moral worth and value of the unborn baby? Are you suggesting that the moral worth and value of unborn babies is somehow dependent upon the financial wealth of the mother?

Think about what you say.

For one thing I had a dream about my daughter in Heaven. So I have gained understanding from that dream. This is why I know a little bit about the book David tells us about in Psalm 139:15. Because I saw the book God wrote for my daughter in the dream. Also I know that daughter never made it to the womb. I also know she is in Heaven because I saw her there and I even had a conversation with one of the angels that was watching over her.
Perhaps your dream was just your subconscious comforting you? The theological concern I have over extra-biblical dreams is that people are oft to take them and create theology that is either absent or contradicts Scripture.

We could easily find a dozen other Christians who had dreams about their aborted or miscarried children. The problem arises when the dreams provide conflicting and contradictory information. How is it that you know your dream is the one that is from God and the one from the other grieving father isn't? It's not like you can rely on Scripture.
 
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JackRT

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As a Christian I am fully aware that my comments below will be unwelcome. The Bible addresses the question of abortion directly only twice and in both cases there is no unambiguous condemnation. But there is a whole other consideration that is on my mind:

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there are no more powerful abortifacients in the world than poverty and ignorance.
 
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GodLovesCats

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SPF, what don't you get about my point that there is no morality in the government banning all abortions, but betraying girls and women who get them for financial reasons at the same time? It is about making it possible for women to not need to terminate their pregnancies for immoral reasons. Women might get an abortion despite knowing it is immoral just because the government is not helping her. Jesus would make sure there would not be a need for an abortion by giving her the help she needs during her pregnancy.
 
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SPF

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SPF, what don't you get about my point that there is no morality in the government banning all abortions, but betraying girls and women who get them for financial reasons at the same time? It is about making it possible for women to not need to terminate their pregnancies for immoral reasons. Women might get an abortion despite knowing it is immoral just because the government is not helping her. Jesus would make sure there owuld not be a need for an abortion by giving her the help she needs during her pregnancy.
What you don't seem to get is that your position is contradictory and inconsistent.

Again, the morality of abortion is entirely, 100% dependent upon how we understand the nature of the human growing inside the womb. If the human inside the womb is indeed morally valuable, and created in the Image of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value - then abortion is immoral.

The how in which a new human comes into existence plays no bearing upon whether or not having an abortion is moral or immoral. This is the fact that you cannot seem to comprehend.

John is not less morally valuable because he came into existence VIA rape compared to Robert who came into existence VIA two loving parents. Both are equally morally valuable because our moral worth and value stems from who we are as created by God - not our circumstances.

What you continue to say is that the how in which a baby comes into existence determines whether or not it is moral or immoral to kill them. This is indefensible.
 
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SPF

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I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there are no more powerful abortifacients in the world than poverty and ignorance.
Is this a direct quote from Bill Clinton or just a paraphrase?
 
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