Does Gods plan for our lives ever include sin?

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,429
936
✟177,464.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Lifting out verses out of Proverbs (or Psalms), and make doctrines out of them could take us into all sorts of strange directions.

The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.

Is it always true that children are blessed if their father walks in integrity? Has there never been one exception in our life time?


10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the Lord.

If God predestines all things, why does he cause abominations to occur? Does God want people to do abominable things since he forces them to do them?


17 Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.

Boy would it be strange if this was taken literally.

Proverbs are general principles, not doctrine.
Man can make plans, that in itself is free will. God does allow some plans to come about and others not, but this isn't even suggesting man doesn't go against God's will.

You mean like you just did, literally a couple of posts ago?

Also....


Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
Isa 10:9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
Isa 10:10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
Isa 10:11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, the fact that God hardens Pharaoh's heart, so that he can use that as an excuse to glorify himself, and Paul using that as an example, that doesn't actually mean anything to you?

I'm sorry man, I'm having a lot of difficulty seeing the freewill in that.
Like I said, a little context would help you out. But, you sound like the typical brain washed Calvinist, so I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
What do you think Romans 9 is about? I'll give you a hint. The chapter doesn't start at verse 9.

9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

So, Paul start off with what his subject is, the plan of redemption that God worked out through Israel. And the point he is making? Right off the bat, you should be able to see where he's going with this. God kept his promise to Israel, in spite of man's rebellion. Why didn't it depend on man but on God's mercy? Because men kept failing to follow God! BTW, Paul doesn't say men don't resist God's will. He says, One of you will say that to me. The Objector is coming from your perspective. He's saying, "No one resist God's will, free will doesn't' exist. And Paul says he is talking back to God. Now, you tell me how it is possible to talk back to God if free will isn't real? If God is controlling every thought that goes in your head and every word out your mouth, then where is there room for talking back? If that were the case, you would literally be thinking God's thoughts.

There's a lot more I could add. Look up the potter reference, it shows God changes his mind. How does that fit in your "no free will" doctrine?

Jer 18. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

How much clearer do you need it that God's plans are dependent on man's response? But, yes, God keeps his promises and brings about redemption, even though his people didn't deserve it. The clay is Israel.
And since you stopped before Paul tells us what point he was leading to:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[m]

Paul isn't summing it up by saying there is no freedom to choose. Just the opposite. How we choose to respond to God determines whether we are part of those chosen for salvation.
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,429
936
✟177,464.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, a little context would help you out. But, you sound like the typical brain washed Calvinist, so I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
What do you think Romans 9 is about? I'll give you a hint. The chapter doesn't start at verse 9.

9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

So, Paul start off with what his subject is, the plan of redemption that God worked out through Israel. And the point he is making? Right off the bat, you should be able to see where he's going with this. God kept his promise to Israel, in spite of man's rebellion. Why didn't it depend on man but on God's mercy? Because men kept failing to follow God! BTW, Paul doesn't say men don't resist God's will. He says, One of you will say that to me. The Objector is coming from your perspective. He's saying, "No one resist God's will, free will doesn't' exist. And Paul says he is talking back to God. Now, you tell me how it is possible to talk back to God if free will isn't real? If God is controlling every thought that goes in your head and every word out your mouth, then where is there room for talking back? If that were the case, you would literally be thinking God's thoughts.

There's a lot more I could add. Look up the potter reference, it shows God changes his mind. How does that fit in your "no free will" doctrine?

Jer 18. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

How much clearer do you need it that God's plans are dependent on man's response? But, yes, God keeps his promises and brings about redemption, even though his people didn't deserve it. The clay is Israel.
And since you stopped before Paul tells us what point he was leading to:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[m]

Paul isn't summing it up by saying there is no freedom to choose. Just the opposite. How we choose to respond to God determines whether we are part of those chosen for salvation.

I'm not a Calvinist, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
No you are a universalist, so you have to reinterpret even more clear scripture to mean the opposite of what they say.
Just like for anyone who trusts in man or man's doctrines instead of Trusting the Father in Heaven by Faith through Grace in Jesus Christ,
no matter what their doctrines, dogmas, practices, or lives are like,
it is devastating , often, and embarrassing, at times, to give up everything to believe Jesus.
A living conscience is also greatly grieved over the past wrongs-sins-actions-beliefs for sometimes a very long time,
but this is better than being judged later....
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,891
1,719
59
New England
✟514,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Compatibism is just determinism with a smoke screen of " free Will" which is actually not free. I have looked into it.


Good day, Renniks

I guess that would depend on how you define free will.
In a nut shell Man will always choose that which he desires the most and does so freely and can do no other.

Now you...

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Good day, Renniks

I guess that would depend on how you define free will.
In a nut shell Man will always choose that which he desires the most and does so freely and can do no other.

Now you...

In Him,

Bill
Perhaps not always (humans are so inconsistent). Several times I've asked someone about a past choice or decision they made, why they did not do what was good and right....
and they responded "you know, I never even thought about it" - what was good and right to do when they made their decision did not even occur to them until it was brought to their attention later (sometimes years later).

Oh, they did "desire" to do what is good and right, but didn't know what that was, or it "slipped their mind" at the time needed... so they did not consider it to choose at the time....
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good day, Renniks

I guess that would depend on how you define free will.
In a nut shell Man will always choose that which he desires the most and does so freely and can do no other.

Now you...

In Him,

Bill
And there you have your smoke screen...you just change the definition of free will at will. But that is not the story of the Bible tells. Choose you this day who you will serve is a real choice, because the Holy Spirit works in every man, giving him enough light to seek and find if he chooses to.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,891
1,719
59
New England
✟514,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And there you have your smoke screen...you just change the definition of free will at will. But that is not the story of the Bible tells. Choose you this day who you will serve is a real choice, because the Holy Spirit works in every man, giving him enough light to seek and find if he chooses to.

Good Day, Renniks

Well I was hoping that you would give your working definition... Not more baseless assertions.

But true it is a real choice and men love the darkness more than light their hearts and mind are wicked continually so they will always chose the darkness, because they are slaves to it.

Only if the Son set's them free are they free indeed, and if he does not they are not.... I am sure you see the connection, we were darkness, and now we are light. They are not light they are still darkness.

Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

Ready for your definition of "free-will"

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Only if the Son set's them free are they free indeed, and if he does not they are not.... I am sure you see the connection, we were darkness, and now we are light. They are not light they are still darkness.
Let's skip the dance and get to the point...is atonement offered to all or not? If yes, then the spirit frees all to choose.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,891
1,719
59
New England
✟514,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps not always (humans are so inconsistent). Several times I've asked someone about a past choice or decision they made, why they did not do what was good and right....
and they responded "you know, I never even thought about it" - what was good and right to do when they made their decision did not even occur to them until it was brought to their attention later (sometimes years later).

Oh, they did "desire" to do what is good and right, but didn't know what that was, or it "slipped their mind" at the time needed... so they did not consider it to choose at the time....

Good Day, yeshuaslavejeff

The fact that they did not or could not accurately determine the choices available to them at any given point in time in no way negates the choice they made represented their greatest desire given the choices they felt that they had ( at the particular time).

In Him

Bll
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Good Day, yeshuaslavejeff

The fact that they did not or could not accurately determine the choices available to them at any given point in time in no way negates the choice they made represented their greatest desire given the choices they felt that they had ( at the particular time).

In Him

Bll
YEs it does, in part at least. They as followers of Jesus always wanted to DO as the FATHER says to DO. Their whole heart's desire was /is/ to do the Father's Will...
When they made a decision that was far less obedient, far less helpful, perhaps even contrary to the Father's Will (unwittingly we hope and pray),
it was as written (for example)
"for lack of knowledge, MY people perish" (this happens DAILY, to multitudes, btw) ...

They may really truly want to do what is good and right and willingly and joyfully so,
but it does not even occur to them what to do , or to do it, for whatever reason... maybe they just never heard the truth before concerning it, maybe their blood sugar was going too far up or down to think straight, maybe other disobedience or lack of prayer permitted the lapse, etc etc etc
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,891
1,719
59
New England
✟514,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let's skip the dance and get to the point...is atonement offered to all or not? If yes, then the spirit frees all to choose.

God Day, Renniks

You have yet to answer the OP in light of the scripture.... now you will not give a working definition of free-will, so you skip to atonement.

Ok I will play, this one last time, but would like some interaction on the questions of your assertions.

The atoning sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross was made to God the Father, on behalf of His people to save them (reality) from their sins that is why Jesus came. He did/ and does so with out fail.

Matt 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Let's skip the dance and get to the point...is atonement offered to all or not? If yes, then the spirit frees all to choose.
How does this idea fit with the Scripture (Yahuweh's Word) that states plainly that Yahuweh (the Creator) does not even listen to the prayers of those who consider sin in their heart ?
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The atoning sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross was made to God the Father, on behalf of His people to save them (reality) from their sins that is why Jesus came. He did/ and does so with out fail.
You're still dancing. Who are his people? Answer the question. Is the atonement offered to all or not?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,891
1,719
59
New England
✟514,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, that's an inadequate answer. What is written there that you think is a true and correct answer to the question ? (or were you just avoiding the question?)


Good Day,

I vote avoiding the question.... good at that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,891
1,719
59
New England
✟514,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're still dancing. Who are his people? Answer the question. Is the atonement offered to all or not?

Good day, Renniks

Different question (who are his people) Those adopted by the Father eph 1, and given to the Son by the Father Jn 6... the one who the Father causes to be born again 1 peter:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

Answer mine now

The atonement sacrifice was offered to God the Father.

In Him,

Bill
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0