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Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • No

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 14.3%

  • Total voters
    35

BNR32FAN

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No, in a parable he says he is the vine, not a vine.

I view him as my savior.

What you are doing here is fragmentation. Taking one verse and building a religion out of it. I've quoted a lot of Scripture to you or the other people who are works based and it has been dismissed.

Please post every verse that you believe supports eternal security and I will explain to you how they don’t. I had to do a lot of research to go from being a die hard Protestant to where I am today in my beliefs. I guess I’m somewhat of a mutt. I consider myself a nondenominational who has a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox teachings. The hardest part was to admit that maybe I was wrong and start trying to see the other side of the picture. Reformed theology never added up 100% and there were always scriptures that I had to overlook in order to stay in my reformed beliefs. I don’t have to overlook anything anymore.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well if my memory serves me correctly, I have addressed your points but we keep going back to them, you have avoided my points. Not sure where to go from here, a repeat cycle or you can try and tackle some of my points you ignored or end the conversation.

I am very sorry I’ve been at work and have to make quick replies. What point did I overlook? John 3:16? I provided the definition of the Greek word pisteuo which is translated to believe and you rejected it. Did I miss a post?
 
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BNR32FAN

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No, he is not a vine. He is a man,the second member of the Trinity. You are misinterpreting the parable.

What difference does it make? Nobody here believes He is a stick with leaves on it. It’s a metaphor but the message behind the metaphors are still real messages for us to abide by.
 
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Daniel C

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Are you suggesting that we disregard Jesus’ parables? They do serve a purpose and are not difficult to understand. You say these are my doctrines but the church has held these doctrines since the beginning of Christianity. They are supported by the early church writings throughout the centuries dating all the way back to the 1st century AD. Reformed theology claims to have sola scriptura but that is only because there are no early church writings before the 16th century to support them. So many people believe there is this huge conspiracy within the church to distort God’s word and that ALL of the churches established by the apostles are teaching a false gospel. It’s preposterous to believe that all of the church clergy agreed to this world wide false gospel with no evidence of any sort of refutation or resistance. It’s just incomprehensible.


I don't dismiss any of Jesus' words,I also don't want to misrepresent them either.

There is a church I have in mind that had dominance over Christendom the first 1500 years and I think it is the harlot of Babylon in Revelation,they forced Christians to ''cooperate with Gods will'' and perform sacraments-by the churches authority,not Gods. So what the churches teach isn't always Gods will.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Your assessment on the timing of everlasting life or being saved is misplaced.

We can know now we have eternal life,not at the last judgement,if we have faith:

1 John 5 13
''These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.''

This idea comes directly from John Calvin, who actually said that the teaching that had been passed on as we are telling you for more then 1500 years, was making the faithful worry too much and should therefore be discarded.

He was wrong and scripture teaches he was wrong. Unfortunately American evangelicals are obsessed with the idea mostly from Billy Grahams teachings. Christians have done perfectly well believing in loss of salvation, and piety is therefore something that exists in the older churches. It is a myth that people cannot function as Christians if they don't have absolute assurance that one decision they made will garuntee them salvation even after a life of debauchery.
 
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Daniel C

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What difference does it make? Nobody here believes He is a stick with leaves on it. It’s a metaphor but the message behind the metaphors are still real messages for us to abide by.


Well exactly It's a metaphor, so why would you try and make it a law of salvation?

Sorry I will not be re-posting all my previous posts, at least not today. I think I've posted on and off on this thread for almost 24 hours now so I will give someone else a chance now.

Feel free to go back through the post if you like though.
 
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Daniel C

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This idea comes directly from John Calvin, who actually said that the teaching that had been passed on as we are telling you for more then 1500 years, was making the faithful worry too much and should therefore be discarded.

He was wrong and scripture teaches he was wrong. Unfortunately American evangelicals are obsessed with the idea mostly from Billy Grahams teachings. Christians have done perfectly well believing in loss of salvation, and piety is therefore something that exists in the older churches. It is a myth that people cannot function as Christians if they don't have absolute assurance that one decision they made will garuntee them salvation even after a life of debauchery.


Calvin taught unconditional election,which is against free will and not what I have been advocating.

I think Billy Graham actually believed you could lose your salvation after you are saved but I could be wrong.

My dude,you are also a person who has skipped around a lot of the unambitious verses that have been presented to you that support eternal security. I hope at least you will think about them. :oldthumbsup:

I'm going to drop out of this thread now for a while and let others step in.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Calvin taught unconditional election,which is against free will and not what I have been advocating.

I think Billy Graham actually believed you could lose your salvation after you are saved but I could be wrong.

My dude,you are also a person who has skipped around a lot of the unambitious verses that have been presented to you that support eternal security. I hope at least you will think about them. :oldthumbsup:

I'm going to drop out of this thread now for a while and let others step in.

I've read them many times, but when you put them together with all of scripture you realize phrases like "believe", "have faith", and "will be saved", are all active words. You have to do them constantly and you have to nourish your faith. Then you will be saved.

But very well. I won't respond past this one.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't dismiss any of Jesus' words,I also don't want to misrepresent them either.

There is a church I have in mind that had dominance over Christendom the first 1500 years and I think it is the harlot of Babylon in Revelation,they forced Christians to ''cooperate with Gods will'' and perform sacraments-by the churches authority,not Gods. So what the churches teach isn't always Gods will.
What most people don’t realize is that the Roman church was kicked out of the Catholic Church in 1054 A.D. The inquisitions started shortly after they were excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1184 and lasted for 686 years until 1870. The original Catholic Church that the apostles established had nothing to do with that which became the Orthodox Church in 1054 when they excommunicated Rome.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well exactly It's a metaphor, so why would you try and make it a law of salvation?

Sorry I will not be re-posting all my previous posts, at least not today. I think I've posted on and off on this thread for almost 24 hours now so I will give someone else a chance now.

Feel free to go back through the post if you like though.
I don’t feel like I failed to address any of your posts can you at least give me one example of a post that you wrote that I ignored or failed to address? Just one.
 
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Daniel C

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I don’t feel like I failed to address any of your posts can you at least give me one example of a post that you wrote that I ignored or failed to address? Just one.

Well you missed post #91. You ignored my point and proceeded to tell me I hadn't received salvation:


Your opening statement is incomplete:

''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

If God gives me a gift and says I can keep it forever only two thing can happen after the transaction-

1) God reclaims the gift he said I could keep forever,so he lied.

2) The gift is honoured and salvation is eternal,God told the truth.

Which one is it?


An unsaved person (you) accusing a saved and sealed follower of Christ (me) of not being saved is a shameful thing to do.

Goodnight all.
 
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renniks

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No, in a parable he says he is the vine, not a vine.

I view him as my savior.

What you are doing here is fragmentation. Taking one verse and building a religion out of it. I've quoted a lot of Scripture to you or the other people who are works based and it has been dismissed.

First, I'm not works based. Second, you tried to explain the part about being thrown into the fire in a way that made no sense given the context.
It isn't just one verse that says one must continue in faith in order to be saved.
Of course, Jesus is not a literal plant and we aren't made of wood, but that doesn't cancel out the plain meaning of being cast into the fire.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f]


18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

If you are OSAS, you have to believe that this faith from first to last isn't needed, that it is only needed at the moment of salvation. We have to live by faith or what? We become the godless who suppress the truth.

Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,2 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Who are the righteous? Paul already told us, those who live by faith from first to last. How does one become unrighteous? By either never having faith, or by not continuing to live by faith.
 
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Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
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It's not that we have to be a good servant to be saved but more like if we have a true faith we will be a good servant. Notice that Christ said those "believers" who live in sin and basically take his salvation for granted are not saved or sheep in his eyes. Also notice that he says that those who knew what God wanted them to do with their lives but did not do it would receive "lashes" aka rebuke from Christ but he never says that these people arent saved. He just basically says they will have no rewards. Paul also says the exact same thing in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

So you dont have to be a "good servant" to be saved. You have to be one if you want your eternal rewards and your masters praise in the end though.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well you missed post #91. You ignored my point and proceeded to tell me I hadn't received salvation:


I replied to post 91. Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?


An unsaved person (you) accusing a saved and sealed follower of Christ (me) of not being saved is a shameful thing to do.

Goodnight all.

I never said you are not saved. I would never say that to anyone. Please forgive me but you must’ve misunderstood my point friend. I said no one receives salvation until they die. What is salvation? It is eternal life. We do not actually receive eternal life until we either die or Jesus returns. The only thing we have right now is the hope of receiving eternal life but since salvation is conditional we do not have an assurance unless we abide in Christ. We can still at any point in our life choose to turn away from God and back to a sinful lifestyle or even turn to doubt and unbelief. These things happen all the time.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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"Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone." - Martin Luther

Martin Luther also said,
".. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day"
 
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Neostarwcc

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I never said you are not saved. I would never say that to anyone. Please forgive me but you must’ve misunderstood my point friend. I said no one receives salvation until they die. What is salvation? It is eternal life. We do not actually receive eternal life until we either die or Jesus returns. The only thing we have right now is the hope of receiving eternal life but since salvation is conditional we do not have an assurance unless we abide in Christ. We can still at any point in our life choose to turn away from God and back to a sinful lifestyle or even turn to doubt and unbelief. These things happen all the time.

That's one way of looking at it. One thing about your post though. "Believers" who fall away were never really believers in the first place.
Those people who fall away were in fact, never born again in the first place. As Paul teaches in Romans 11:29 "The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable." Theres also many other statements made by every disciple and by Christ himself that says once a person receives the Holy Spirit that's it. Nothing will take that seal or salvation away. Peter also says this in 1 Peter 1:3-5 in which he calls our inheritance "incorruptible, undefined, and doesn't fade away. Reserved in heaven for us" he also says in the 5th verse that we are kept by the power of God.

John also says the same thing in 1 John 2:19 and takes it even further by saying "for if they had been of us, they would have REMAINED with us"

Sorry. To claim that a person can lose their salvation is to claim that the new birth can be taken away which just is not scriptural. The church may teach it but the apostles and Christ NEVER taught it.
 
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I'm sorry but none of these verses you quoted actually state a person who is born again can actually lose their salvation.

We see in the Bible about the Holy Spirit entering and indwelling into saved people,causing a regeneration or rebirth but there's no talk about the spirit exit after a person has accepted Christ,causing a ''degeneration'' of some sort. Why is that?

I'm not that good at dissecting posts so if you want a particular verse addressed put forward a couple that best supports your belief and i'll try to deal with that.

Try re-reading the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), and James 5:19-20. Both of these parts of Scripture show that you can lose salvation, and then become saved again. For why else do you think we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
 
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I would say yes and no because firstly, no one is good but God and secondly, your good deeds can never save you. I've seen a lot of people, protestants in particular say, "we're saved by grace alone through faith alone." What they are saying is correct. God coming in the person of Jesus and dying for our sins when we didn't deserve it is grace and us believing in that finished work is faith.

However, what about that passage in James that says faith without works is dead? That's also correct, faith without good works can mean that a person's faith (in the finished work of Christ) isn't genuine. Good works validate faith (the thing that ultimately saves you) as genuine. A person that truly has faith will produce good works if they don't I would be concerned for them and they need to question if their faith is genuine. So yes, you need to produce good works but no that doesn't save you. For those that say yes alone that would mean that Jesus didn't need to come and die and you could have saved yourself. And for those that say no alone, I think you need to check if your faith is genuine because if you truly have faith you would produce good works.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
 
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Well you're right about Christianity not being works salvation. It's by faith.

I don't believe a saved person can "walk away" or abandon the faith after they are saved. Even if they wanted to, Gods will is stronger and won't let them:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one."

So Jesus is telling us after we are saved we won't walk away, because no-one can take the saved from him.

Then why doesn't God just force all people to be saved then?
 
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Well you're right about Christianity not being works salvation. It's by faith.

I don't believe a saved person can "walk away" or abandon the faith after they are saved. Even if they wanted to, Gods will is stronger and won't let them:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one."

So Jesus is telling us after we are saved we won't walk away, because no-one can take the saved from him.

So if we are forced against our will to be saved by God after we accept Christ, then why are we told to endure to the end, be faithful unto death, overcome, continue in his love, etc.?

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So yeah; We are not an some kind of saved autopilot mode like you assume.
 
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