Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[topher694]

A lot of naive people on here. There were a lot of naive people in my old church too.

They took my abuser's side because he was more extroverted than me. I was only married for 2.5 months and had been left bruised many times from kicks, bites, and eventually a full blown attack. Faced constant lectures from husband about submitting when in fact I would submit but not to walking in the flesh all day instead of serving the Lord.

I found out after that he had previous convictions for domestic violence and attacked his own brother with an axe and had been on remand for it. Escaped jail for it due to his brother not testifying in court.

My church rallied around him when I was in refuge and I faced many conversations from men telling me I ought to forgive and stop being separated. Eventually I changed churches my new pastor said divorce. 2 years later I still get messages of manipulation and twisting of scripture. This is what I received last month. Oh and he enangelises strangers left right and centre when he has no problem lying and mentioning God in the same sentence. He has no fear of the Lord, doesn't care about sinning and plots sin too. I have forgiven. After receiving these messages all I wanted to do was pray for him. I'm sharing to show just because someone pretends they are a Christian, it doesn't mean that they are.

Note how he only apologises wicked words. His texts are written to scare me but also make me sound crazy if I showed police etc.

Awful, but unfortunately I've seen plenty just like it. I hope you don't respond to those texts, it's really not worth it.

In my opinion, when a husband brings up submission to his wife in this manner, he is already out of order and in error himself, which means there is nothing to submit to.

 

[LoricaLady]

God didn’t remove the thorn from Paul.

So I’m not sure how you can say this.

Okay I gotta bite again. First to your earlier post where you are blaming victims for making wrong choices in their spouses... There is something called "love bombing" which is very familiar to psychotherapists who deal with abusive people. Initially the prospective mate can seem wonderful. There may be no signs of an abusive personality at all. He or she may shower the intended with all kinds of praise, gifts, whatever, say "You are my soul mate" etc. etc.

Then when they are married, the mask can drop, more and more over time.

Even if there are signs of trouble ahead, many people are very naive. Sometimes, especially, Christians. They can't imagine anyone being so devious. Even when they see red flags, because they have no such problems in their own hearts, they don't really see the dangers ahead, but are maybe just confused.

You should not be so quick to judge others, friend! "Judge not and you will not be judged." You're not an expert on all the innumerable ways that people can be deceived.

As for the thorn in the flesh, that was not a thorn. First of all "thorn in the flesh" is a Hebrew idiom, not intended to be taken literally at all. It could be compared to "pain in the butt" in English. 2ndly if you read the passage in context, there is not even a hint of any kind of physical ailment. Instead Paul talks about "a messenger of satan" sent to assault him.

Don't just read the Bible with a cursory glance. Really search it out. Please also don't be dismissive of others' pain with just a cursory glance. There you probably, generally, won't even have the ability to search out what is really going on. Show compassion.

If you have anything else to say to me, sorry, I'm really not interested in a further exchange.

 

[Sam91]

Awful, but unfortunately I've seen plenty just like it. I hope you don't respond to those texts, it's really not worth it.

In my opinion, when a husband brings up submission to his wife in this manner, he is already out of order and in error himself, which means there is nothing to submit to.

No I don't. He can't even see that I have seen it. I need his address to get divorced or he'd be completely blocked instead of on an ignore list. Not that I'm in a hurry to get a divorce. I'm planning on remaining alone whether we divorce or stay separated.

 

[Sam91]

@Sam91 I am SO, SO sorry for your experience and grieved that the church took his side. Thank you for posting your first hand experience, hopefully so those who might be quick to assume by default that the church is always a safe place reconsider.

I wish there didn't have to be untold stories out there just like yours.

I'm so glad you were able to comprehend how you were being treated to escape that. One of the hardest things in marriage coaching is convincing an abused wife to separate from her husband in cases when it is necessary.

I wouldn't stay in an abusive marriage. It would be damaging to my children. I had a wonderful loving relationship before that marriage but I made a mistake and allowed him to pressure me into getting married while I was grieving the death of my partner. I misread signs that it was in the Lord's will and was very foolish and married the guy I went out with at 16 years old, all the years before.

However, the Lord taught me much and showed me how he gives strength to the weary and how he provides so bountifully. I now have a lot of Christians around me. The Lord is Good beyond measure!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Okay I gotta bite again. First to your earlier post where you are blaming victims for making wrong choices in their spouses...

I am referring to ONE ARTICLE AND SITUATION.

Not blaming EVERY victim.

The problem with these threads is they don’t stay on topic and a response to a specific article and situation soon gets twisted.

So let’s deal with the OP and article before you start telling me off.

That would be nice.

 

[Endeavourer]

I rather think that this lady should take more personal responsibility.

Here me out.

The church are not law enforcement and if she is afraid of her husband, she should have moved out or temporarily left for a few months or got a restraining order.

Thinking a church or someone else should take responsibility for her own lack of taking responsibility for her own inaction.

Sounds to me like she was more worried about what ‘people’ in the church would think, than she worried about her own safety.

She had no problem deceiving the congregation to keep her family’s place in ministry.

I think the whole scene is a problem and sounds like a bad organization in general.

Let’s talk about being unequally yoked. It’s obvious these type of men show this behavior before marriage, so where’s the responsibility in her choice.

Whether she knew or not before marriage, she still took no responsibility for herself or her lack of action.

She could equally be seen as deceptive, since she carried on the charade deceiving people, knowing her husband didn’t belong in ministry, was preaching not according to his own deeds.

The entire organization sounds sketchy. All the parties involved

So who were you putting your stock and faith in God or men?

Everyone seems so worried about what they’re church members think or how they will judge.

People need to be more worried about God and less about mankind.

It is your caring so much that others will think negatively of you or better about him.

Sometimes you just need to be willing to be your own person, make peace with God and then just put it in God’s hands.

People care too much about what other people not in the situation say and think. That can become gossip.

There is some harsh stuff in here.

To an extent, this is an display of "help" along the lines of my concern in the original post.

Post #115 by @Paidiske has some great information that may influence your viewpoint.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is something called "love bombing" which is very familiar to psychotherapists who deal with abusive people. Initially the prospective mate can seem wonderful. There may be no signs of an abusive personality at all. He or she may shower the intended with all kinds of praise, gifts, whatever, say "You are my soul mate" etc. etc.

Then when they are married, the mask can drop, more and more over time.

Even if there are signs of trouble ahead, many people are very naive. Sometimes, especially, Christians. They can't imagine anyone being so devious. Even when they see red flags, because they have no such problems in their own hearts, they don't really see the dangers ahead, but are maybe just confused.

You should not be so quick to judge others, friend! "Judge not and you will not be judged." You're not an expert on all the innumerable ways that people can be deceived.

As for the thorn in the flesh, that was not a thorn. First of all "thorn in the flesh" is a Hebrew idiom, not intended to be taken literally at all. It could be compared to "pain in the butt" in English. 2ndly if you read the passage in context, there is not even a hint of any kind of physical ailment. Instead Paul talks about "a messenger of satan" sent to assault him.

Don't just read the Bible with a cursory glance. Really search it out. Please also don't be dismissive of others' pain with just a cursory glance. There you probably, generally, won't even have the ability to search out what is really going on. Show compassion.

If you have anything else to say to me, sorry, I'm really not interested in a further exchange.

If you read my replies, I said a few things.

First, she could have gotten a restraining order if she was afraid. Or left her husband, but she chose to stay in the marriage and continued a pastoral position with her husband.

She lived the same sham he did.

 

[LoricaLady]

Goodbye ToBeLoved.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is some harsh stuff in here.

To an extent, this is an display of "help" along the lines of my concern in the original post.

Post #115 by @Paidiske has some great information that may influence your viewpoint.

God is not harsh?

What does God say about pastor/ teachers in 2 Timothy?

I hear her blaming everyone else and the church, but the church is not equipped to always deal with these situations and if she was afraid, she should have removed herself from the situation.

I really think she was embarrassed and wanted the other pastors on her side and wanted them to do the work for her.

Now, in my church he would have been gone, but that should tell her more about the type of organization she was in then the “church” as a whole. Hundreds of thousands of churches.

If anything the church should be blamed for not removing the pastor.

Once there was abuse, it should leave the churches hands and become a court issue.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Goodbye ToBeLoved.

It’s lovely to see you too. Maybe come back later.

 

[Sam91]

So who were you putting your stock and faith in God or men?

Everyone seems so worried about what they’re church members think or how they will judge.

People need to be more worried about God and less about mankind.

It is your caring so much that others will think negatively of you or better about him.

Sometimes you just need to be willing to be your own person, make peace with God and then just put it in God’s hands.

People care too much about what other people not in the situation say and think. That can become gossip.

I have my prayer diary from around that time. I remember how I was praying for Him to be healed and that he'd repent. I was concerned that I was in danger though. I faced those conversations from a few guys in the Church because only his side was being heard. I didn't tell those people what was going on, I wanted to speak to the Pastor's. I couldn't get the Pastors to talk to me and I had proof of his past. All I could get in the 6 weeks that I still attended my church was the Pastor's wife to pray with me before the service and told he wouldn't approach me at Church.

I wanted to meet them in private so I could show them the tape recording of the threat about commiting that crime. I'd recorded it on my phone stood outside in the garden because I was too scared to be in the house. I had asked for a separation and he told me it was the final nail in my coffin and that he was going to plot my downfall. I also wanted to show them the letters he had received from a fellow prisoner when he had escaped jail, his probation paperwork from his domestic violence conviction and the apology letters he had drafted to his brother. It wouldn't have been about spite, or gossip. It was about protecting my family. I had been at the Church for 9 months, him for 3 and he only attended 1/2 the time out of those weeks until we had split up. He had only lived in my country since the marriage because he was from England. He is now back there and left after I changed churches. He was only going to there to see me.

The problem was that he was extroverted and had no guilt. He could lie and he told them I was ill. They thought I was bipolar. I could have had many people vouch for my sanity if needed. There hadn't been a shadow of dysfunction in my life until him.. Not any that anyone knew of anyway

The fact I wouldn't gossip also didn't help my cause. I was unwilling to say anything bad about him to those who didn't need to hear it because of my faith. I found the paperwork while packing his stuff (until then I had no idea about his dysfunctional past, he seemed nice when we were young) after I got my house back after two weeks when the landlord refused to let him stay because I had lived there for years.

 

[LoricaLady]

P.S. ToBeLoved I so often seem to think of something else to say after I finish a post... It is fairly common knowledge why many abuse victims stay with their abusers. The abusive mate slowly grinds down the victim with confusing, hurtful, mentally damaging verbal, maybe even physical, assaults to keep them feeling like they are a POS. You may think you are a tower of strength, but we really don't know if you, too, wouldn't crumble under such conditions, do we?

Often the emotionally drained victim is also isolated by the abuser and does not have a good support system to help build her (or him) up and assist in a rescue. The victim is often terrified! Even if the spouse hasn't threatened them, they get the idea that there could be real danger in resisting the abuse, especially by leaving.. And they are right! Studies show, and at least one poster above has seen, that such people are sometimes murdered if they try to escape.

They may have children and no other way to support them without the spouse. Well, the list just goes on and on. Again, you are no expert on what people can be going through. You don't see into their hearts or behind closed doors. "Do not judge and YOU will not be judged."

And if you reply, sorry, but as I said, Goodbye!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have my prayer diary from around that time. I remember how I was praying for Him to be healed and that he'd repent. I was concerned that I was in danger though. I faced those conversations from a few guys in the Church because only his side was being heard. I didn't tell those people what was going on, I wanted to speak to the Pastor's. I couldn't get the Pastors to talk to me and I had proof of his past. All I could get in the 6 weeks that I still attended my church was the Pastor's wife to pray with me before the service and told he wouldn't approach me at Church.

I wanted to meet them in private so I could show them the tape recording of the threat about commiting that crime. I'd recorded it on my phone stood outside in the garden because I was too scared to be in the house. I had asked for a separation and he told me it was the final nail in my coffin and that he was going to plot my downfall. I also wanted to show them the letters he had received from a fellow prisoner when he had escaped jail, his probation paperwork from his domestic violence conviction and the apology letters he had drafted to his brother. It wouldn't have been about spite, or gossip. It was about protecting my family. I had been at the Church for 9 months, him for 3 and he only attended 1/2 the time out of those weeks until we had split up. He had only lived in my country since the marriage because he was from England. He is now back there and left after I changed churches. He was only going to there to see me.

The fact I wouldn't gossip probably didn't help my cause. I found the paperwork while packing his stuff (until then I had no idea about his dysfunctional past, he seemed nice when we were young) after I got my house back after two weeks when the landlord refused to let him stay because I had lived there for years.

It’s a terrible situation for sure.

But I don’t think churches are equipped to handle these situations and that people need to take legal remedies.

Like a restraining order and filing police reports.

Getting the church involved usually brings on a bunch of other problems.

 

[ToBeLoved]

P.S. ToBeLoved I so often seem to think of something else to say after I finish a post... It is fairly common knowledge why many abuse victims stay with their abusers. The abusive mate slowly grinds down the victim with confusing, hurtful, mentally damaging verbal, maybe even physical, assaults to keep them feeling like they are a POS. You may think you are a tower of strength, but we really don't know if you, too, wouldn't crumble under such conditions, do we?

Often the emotionally drained victim is also isolated by the abuser and does not have a good support system to help build her (or him) up and assist in a rescue. The victim is often terrified! Even if the spouse hasn't threatened them, they get the idea that there could be real danger in resisting the abuse, especially by leaving.. And they are right! Studies show, and at least one poster above has seen, that such people are sometimes murdered if they try to escape.

They may have children and no other way to support them without the spouse. Well, the list just goes on and on. Again, you are no expert on what people can be going through. You don't see into their hearts or behind closed doors. "Do not judge and YOU will not be judged."

And if you reply, sorry, but as I said, Goodbye!

So are you replying to the OP article or in general?

Because from what I am reading this is in general on domestic issues.

Maybe you missed I was replying to the OP article and situation or maybe you just want to take this off topic.

Please start another thread if you don’t wish to discuss the OP ARTICLE.

It was lovely conversing with you even though it wasn’t about the OP

 

[Sam91]

It’s a terrible situation for sure.

But I don’t think churches are equipped to handle these situations and that people need to take legal remedies.

Like a restraining order and filing police reports.

Getting the church involved usually brings on a bunch of other problems.

Yh the police weren't much help. I had bruises but it was still my word against his because even though I couldn't have done it to myself, it doesn't mean that he did. They said he was manipulative and hadn't said anything that could add to the burden of proof enough for it to go to court. The police did tell me they would hold him long enough for me to go home and get some of our belongings. I had fled in my pyjamas and my coat and we were wearing clothes the refuge had given us.

I didn't want it to go to court though, that would have been so embarrassing. If it had happened at my new church they would have met me, and put him out the Church. Part of the problem with the old church was that they were new pastors settling in. They came the day before I went into refuge and were probably very busy.

 

[Endeavourer]

But I don’t think churches are equipped to handle these situations and that people need to take legal remedies.

Getting the church involved usually brings on a bunch of other problems.

So it seems you agree with the premise in the OP?

In the linked article, however, the megachurch the wife sought help from had a counseling division with licensed, qualified counselors that were part of the church's disgraceful handling, so her church was purporting to be equipped to handle her problem.

 

[Sam91]

Christian victims of domestic abuse possibly are leaning into the Lord very closely. They are seeking His strength and seeking to do His will. They have much faith and can see how the Lord comforts them. They are willing to do His will and do not want to sin and will answer truthfully. They will be following Him and be open to accepting responsibility for their actions where they could be better.

This makes the situation easier for the abuser. I can't see how a very abusive person can in fact pray. Having seen how easy it is for an abuser to lie I assume that other abusive people are not fearful of telling lies. It means that when an abused spouse approaches the Church for help or advice they are already at a disadvantage.

Pastor's ought to receive adequate training in how to handle these things as they have a responsibility to protect the weak and to not allow abuse to continue. Adequate training involves the knowledge of how religious beliefs are very often found in and used by violent, oppressive men.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In the linked article, however, the megachurch the wife sought help from had a counseling division with licensed, qualified counselors that were part of the church's disgraceful handling, so her church was purporting to be equipped to handle her problem.

Which paragraph was that?

 

[Endeavourer]

Which paragraph was that?

Harvest Bible Chapel had a "Soul Care" counseling department led by Dr. Garret Higbee:

In October or November 2012, Willey said Cochran and his wife began meeting regularly with Frers and her husband by Skype. And in November 2012, Cochran and Willey, who were the acting HBC Fairfax elders at the time, recommended that Frers and her husband attend Soul Care’s intensive counseling.

That intensive counseling took place in the Chicago area and was led by Garrett Higbee, former executive director of Biblical Soul Care at the main Harvest in Chicago, and now the director of pastoral care for GCC. Also attending the counseling as “advocates” were Cochran and his wife.

Frers said she described the same behaviors to Higbee that she had described to Jaime DuBard. But she said Higbee did not address her husband’s abusive behavior.

Instead, Frers said that after her husband mentioned that Frers had threatened to leave him if his behavior didn’t change, “Garrett Higbee told me that if you bring that up you were essentially not cooperating in your marriage. So, I was basically made to feel like I was the problem that weekend, that it was my fault for wanting to leave.”

Higbee would not discuss any specifics that happened during the session. However, he said that in general, “We hold men to a very high account on treating their wife with love and respect and care and if we see dynamics—which I knew there was controlling dynamics there—we call the guy out on that.”

Frers said after the intensive counseling, her marriage was “a thousand times worse” because her husband was angry about how much she had revealed.

Higbee said Frers never reported to him directly that she was being abused. However, in an email to Frers in 2019, Higbee said that following the intensive, he told “HBF leaders,” including “the advocates”—John and Jamy Cochran—and “those who will pick up the counsel”—HBC Fairfax elders—about Frers’ husband’s “controlling tendencies.”

In Dr. Higbee's writings at this link you will see why protection of the abusing pastor was so essential. Their duty to the old boy's club at Harvest was stronger than any desire to stand up for those injured in its wake:

thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/HigbeeHBC.pdf

 

[ToBeLoved]

Harvest Bible Chapel had a "Soul Care" counseling department led by Dr. Garret Higbee:

In October or November 2012, Willey said Cochran and his wife began meeting regularly with Frers and her husband by Skype. And in November 2012, Cochran and Willey, who were the acting HBC Fairfax elders at the time, recommended that Frers and her husband attend Soul Care’s intensive counseling.

That intensive counseling took place in the Chicago area and was led by Garrett Higbee, former executive director of Biblical Soul Care at the main Harvest in Chicago, and now the director of pastoral care for GCC. Also attending the counseling as “advocates” were Cochran and his wife.

Frers said she described the same behaviors to Higbee that she had described to Jaime DuBard. But she said Higbee did not address her husband’s abusive behavior.

Instead, Frers said that after her husband mentioned that Frers had threatened to leave him if his behavior didn’t change, “Garrett Higbee told me that if you bring that up you were essentially not cooperating in your marriage. So, I was basically made to feel like I was the problem that weekend, that it was my fault for wanting to leave.”

Higbee would not discuss any specifics that happened during the session. However, he said that in general, “We hold men to a very high account on treating their wife with love and respect and care and if we see dynamics—which I knew there was controlling dynamics there—we call the guy out on that.”

Frers said after the intensive counseling, her marriage was “a thousand times worse” because her husband was angry about how much she had revealed.

Higbee said Frers never reported to him directly that she was being abused. However, in an email to Frers in 2019, Higbee said that following the intensive, he told “HBF leaders,” including “the advocates”—John and Jamy Cochran—and “those who will pick up the counsel”—HBC Fairfax elders—about Frers’ husband’s “controlling tendencies.”

In Dr. Higbee's writings at this link you will see why protection of the abusing pastor was so essential. Their duty to the old boy's club at Harvest was stronger than any desire to stand up for those injured in its wake:

thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/HigbeeHBC.pdf

I said earlier that this entire organization seems like a scam.

Also, it sounds like a counseling conference to me, rather than a private one-on-one

Intensive Counseling – Biblical Counseling Coalition