Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[Endeavourer]

Someone needs to develop a training curriculum for church leaders on how to biblically and properly deal with DV. I feel that we are far behind the world on this subject.

The blind leading the blind (no wonder Piper had to step down from his ministry for a year to work on his marriage):

Transcript:

What should a wife's submission to her husband look like if he's an abuser?

<snarky chuckle>

Oh my.

Part of that answer is clearly going to depend on what kind of abuse we’re dealing with here, how serious this is. Is her life in danger? Or is this verbal unkindness? I’m not sure what the person who asked the question had in mind. So let me just talk about different kinds.

A woman’s submission to her husband is rooted in the word of God, calling her to be—for the Lord’s sake, for the Lord’s sake—submissive to him. Which means she always has a higher allegiance, namely to Christ.

Therefore Christ’s word governs her life. And Christ has many words besides “Be submissive.” “Be submissive” is not an absolute, because her Lord has other things to tell her, so that if the husband tells her something that contradicts what the Lord tells her, then she’s got a crisis of, “To whom do I submit now?” And clearly, she submits to Jesus above her husband. The reason she is submitting to her husband is because of her prior superior submission to the Lord.

So if this man, for example, is calling her to engage in abusive acts willingly (group sex or something really weird, bizarre, harmful, that clearly would be sin), then the way she submits—I really think this is possible, though it’s kind of paradoxical—is that she’s not going to go there. I’m saying, “No, she’s not going to do what Jesus would disapprove even though the husband is asking her to do it.”

She’s going to say, however, something like, “Honey, I want so much to follow you as my leader. God calls me to do that, and I would love to do that. It would be sweet to me if I could enjoy your leadership. But if you ask me to do this, require this of me, then I can’t go there.”

Now that’s one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.

Every time I deal with somebody in this, I find the ultimate solution under God in the church. In other words, this man should be disciplined, and she should have a safe place in a body of Christ where she goes and then the people in the church deal with him. She can’t deal with him by herself.

So the short answer, I think, is that the church is really crucial here to step in, be her strength, say to this man, “You can’t do this. You cannot do this! That’s not what we allow. That’s not what Christ calls you to be.”

I can’t go in to all the details, but I would say to the woman, “Come to a church that you feel safe in. Tell them the case. Let the leaders step in and help you navigate the difficulties.”

So she "endures perhaps being smacked on night" and doesn't call the authorities? She waits until the next day to seek help from the church?

Notice also his minimization of abuse as "verbal unkindness".

 

[Endeavourer]

Further, while I respect your well supported opinion herein, I disagree with your recommendation to abused women to avoid "pastors or the church" in seeking help. I propose to instead recommend that abused women seek help from any and all possible sources until they get the help they need.

Don't be dissuaded from seeking help simply because of the possibility that the person trying to help you might screw it up. Perfection elludes us all.

Did you read the article in the link? Especially for women, often the 'help' from the church is on par with the abuse they are suffering at home. I wish "often" was an exaggeration.

 

[A Realist]

Any church with an attitude like Piper is only empowering the husband(s) to abuse their wives (verbally or physically).....and there are many such churches.....especially in Fundagelical-land.

 

[carp614]

Did you read the article in the link? Especially for women, often the 'help' from the church is on par with the abuse they are suffering at home. I wish "often" was an exaggeration.

Yes. I still think it's bad advice to discourage women from seeking help from pastors and the church, especially given the tendency for self blame and hiding in shame so many abused women have as a result of the trauma they have suffered.

I respect your opinion and I see it is well thought out, but I still disagree.

 

[Endeavourer]

This book has been absolutely vital to me in my journey towards becoming the kind of Husband my wife deserves and the Lord expects me to be. It was by no means the end of that journey, but it provided a foundation from which I could grow that has been indispensable. It's not the authors fault that these concepts are so badly skewed by readers and pastors alike.

Some men have read this book and have been able to benefit from it, although I feel little of its advice is according to Scripture.

However, it places a heavy burden on the wife to provide unconditional respect towards another mortal being; the only One who is worthy of unconditional respect is our Lord.

Further, "respect" is often used as a code word for "obey". Eggerich uses the example "I didn't feel respected just now when you ___ ". In doing so, Eggerich gives the man the responsibility of enforcing verses in the Bible that don't belong to him.

There is no verse telling a husband to drive, make, browbeat, demand, insist on or otherwise wrangle submission from his wife. The verse on her submission is given to her and her alone. This was a huge advancement of women's equality at the time because the culture then was for the husband to enforce his wife's submission. Paul changes that on its head when he gives the responsibility of submission wholly to the party doing the submitting, and only to that party.

 

[Endeavourer]

Fully realizing abuse claims have been mishandled in the more nefarious ways you mentioned, IMHO you are missing a far larger reason abuse gets mishandled by the church - and that causes it to be mishandled often in churches that are not in the conservative variety you described. There is much familiarity among members of a church, and that familiarity results in people believing what they see in someone is all of the reality of that person. Most abusers are really good at hiding that side of their personality, certainly within the church, and appearing to never be the type of person who would do "that".

Yes, this ^^^.

That's the gist of what I meant by the old boys club. Thank you for putting it into such a thoughtful remark.

Pastors and the church leadership (esp from male central churches) tend to know the husband (or think they do) well, and may even consider themselves friends. Therefore, they do exactly what you describe disproportionately to benefit the husband.

I've heard way to many, sad stories about a wife being reprimanded for being unsubmissive while the husband was taken out to lunch for tips on how to get his wife to submit better. That sounds like a cynical exaggeration, and I wish it were. There are also many more stories where the differentiator was more subtly delivered but very much present.

 

[bèlla]

As one who has studied this book and done the small group curriculum I don't think your characterization of Eggerichs's book is fair.

I’ve read the book as well and dozens of others on marriage and related subjects. I quoted The Respect Dare the other day and really enjoyed it. And I took the challenge too.

 

[LoricaLady]

There are many psychotherapists and counselors who say that all men who abuse their wives are suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder - if not sociopathy or psychopathy. And they all agree, 100%, that such abusers never change in any significant ways. Brain scans and case histories indicate that such offenders have a genetic disorder which is associated with decreased cortical development in the empathy areas of the brain.

What medicine, what surgery, what Bible verses and Pastorly Christian platitudes are going to make their brains develop the needed cortical connections? I am not saying the Lord can't heal such people through a miracle. But I am saying that those other fields cannot.

Of course some of the narcissists are Pastors. They are expert at making themselves admirable in the eyes of others - except for their own families of course. Narcissists wear masks for the public.

Here is some info for any who are suffering, or have suffered from narcissists. This comes from a channel by a Christian psychotherapist who has dealt with many victims of narcissistic abuse. His, and other such channels, provide comfort and understanding and advice for victims. To sum up, their best advice is, wherever possible, "Get out!"
Surviving Narcissism

 

[Endeavourer]

This book has been absolutely vital to me in my journey towards becoming the kind of Husband my wife deserves and the Lord expects me to be. It was by no means the end of that journey, but it provided a foundation from which I could grow that has been indispensable. It's not the authors fault that these concepts are so badly skewed by readers and pastors alike.

I’ve read the book as well and dozens of others on marriage and related subjects. I quoted The Respect Dare the other day and really enjoyed it. And I took the challenge too.

One more comment on this book is how he handles sex. To him, sex is for the man. Not once does he reference the woman's sexual needs or pleasure. Duty, obligatory, prostitution like sex to keep your home together. This isn't just my take; it's what came through to every woman I've met who has commented to me on how the book affected their intimacy.

Yet, Song of Solomon describes a mutual yearning and longing on both parts of the couple. It seems Eggerich has cut that book out of his Bible.

Instead, Eggerich positions sex is as a way to "minister" to the husband and respect him. Yuck!!

Several defining passages from his book:

The section opens with a story about a daughter explaining to her mother that she and her husband are having a fight, and the mother telling the daughter that she should have more sex with him, saying, “Why would you deprive him of something that takes such a short amount of time and makes him sooooo happy!?”

“His anatomy and design is much different from yours. “He needs sexual release as you need emotional release.”

“Who is supposed to be the mature one here? He is a new believer and you’ve been in Christ for many years.”….She decided to minister to her husband sexually, not because she particularly wanted to, but because she wanted to do it as unto Jesus Christ. She just didn’t have that need for sex….

More from this excellent review:
https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2019/01/love-and-respect-review-how-sex-portrayed/

 

[bmjackson]

Sometimes its best to leave the Lord's battles to Him. When you are defending your dignity and value, the fight takes a pretty deep toll on you.

Sometimes the approach you are suggesting can be akin to thinking it's your job to help God fulfill his prophesies. Or, trying to be the 'deputy Holy Spirit'.

Not all battles are for you at this time, and God certainly is capable of sending his Spirit to convict the hearts of people at the time He wills to do it.

You seem to be really hurt by what is going on, which is understandable. A place of hurt is usually not a very strong position for launching a battle.

Yes you are right. I want to be doing it that is taking the course and becoming involved for the sake of other victims not to expose the minister. Thanks.

 

[Endeavourer]

LaBella, I always enjoy your comments and the thought you put into them.

We should avoid making judgments and provide support for both. Listening and prayer is a must as is safety and cooling for each.

I have learned from two decades of unspeakable admissions (from others) of our ability to behave unfathomably behind closed doors. We maim those closest to us in ways we’d never treat a friend or stranger.

These two paragraphs seem contradictory to me. In the case of abuse, or this unfathomable behavior, providing support for both parties is fuel for the perpetrator and destructive to the victim.

We are apt to rest on the consequence and pick sides. Viewing one party as the aggressor and the other as victim when the truth is probably worse. Mutual harm has occurred and displayed in different ways. Both are unloving.

In the case of abuse (intentionally causing emotional or physical hurt to another person), there actually is an aggressor and a victim. While sometimes a victim's response to the aggression can also be defined as abuse, it is sin leveling to suggest the perpetration and the response are equivalent.

 

[topher694]

Abuse is awful and mishandled far too often.

The church has missed the mark badly in too many cases.

No one should ever be encouraged to go back into a potentially dangerous situation.

No one should ever be made to feel like abuse is their fault.

The abused needs healing and deliverance.

The abuser needs healing and deliverance.

Additionally it seems to me that some advocates also need healing and deliverance. Cynicism and bitterness help no one.

 

[Endeavourer]

Additionally it seems to me that some advocates also need healing and deliverance. Cynicism and bitterness help no one.

Hi Topher,

I recall that you are a pastor, and hopefully you are one of those exceptions I carved out at the beginning of my post. I've always appreciated your thoughtful comments on this board.

What were your thoughts on the article in the original post? And on the L&R style advice?

Have you encountered many women who are recovering from that type of treatment? If you do, what is your counsel for them?

The abuser needs healing and deliverance.

This is the conflict that most pastors struggle to straddle. They want to minister to the souls. The patient for the pastor is instinctively the unbeliever's soul, not the marriage. The abuser rarely is able to change and in trying to minister to him is, from the many instances of it I've seen, at the expense of the wife.

(For sake of this thread, which specifically references the "submission" card, I reference the abuser as him. A believing husband suffering abuse from his wife has a different dynamic because while the "unconditional love" teaching we often hear has some parallels, it is different from an "unconditional submission" teaching. Neither gender's suffering under abuse can be minimized; both types of abuse cause deep suffering.)

 

[ChicanaRose]

To sum up, their best advice is, wherever possible, "Get out!"
Surviving Narcissism

Good info!

 

[bèlla]

LaBella, I always enjoy your comments and the thought you put into them.

Thank you for the kind words. I replied to your other message but decided not to post it. I’m going to step back from this discussion. I am not in a setting where my comment wouldn’t be taken out of context. I’m not saying you would personally. But debate is counterproductive for this subject.

 

[Endeavourer]

Thank you for the kind words. I replied to your other message but decided not to post it. I’m going to step back from this discussion. I am not in a setting where my comment wouldn’t be taken out of context. I’m not saying you would personally. But debate is counterproductive for this subject.

You're welcome; they were sincere.

If you feel discussion is better in a private setting, I'd welcome a PM.

I have seen so much pain caused by this situation that I've felt a discussion among believers on the topic is essential for quite a while. When yet another situation came up today within the multi-campus megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with identical echos to so many stories of women before, I felt led to open the discussion here.

It's not uncommon for women who go through this type of trauma turn away from their faith, which makes the outcome sadder still.

 

[carp614]

There are many psychotherapists and counselors who say that all men who abuse their wives are suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder - if not sociopathy or psychopathy. And they all agree, 100%, that such abusers never change in any significant ways.

Not even the national abuse hotline agrees with this line of reasoning. Difficult yes, impossible no.
https://www.thehotline.org/2013/09/05/is-change-possible-in-an-abuser/

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

This was originally posted in the marriage forum but I'm reposting here by request so everyone else may join the discussion too.

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between. Several dynamics are at play:

a) protection of the ol' boys
b) twisting Scripture verses about wives submitting to husbands
c) the outsized influence in the churches of the popular book "Love and Respect", aka "The Husband's Calling to Abuse His Wife" that has made many recommended reading lists and widely adapted by conservative churches; however the book plays on Bible-y phrases and concepts that are unquestioned in the filters of many conservative believers to subtly twist and shift the enactment of submission beyond anything the Bible would recognize.

Here is one story of an abused wife who sought help from the church. I'm so very sad to say this is result is more typical than not. So, so sad.

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

"Love and Respect's" fingerprints are all over this part:

"However, Frers [the abused wife] said in 2012, she told Becky Willey that she was afraid to join her husband who had three months earlier moved to Fairfax, Virginia, to plant a church. Frers said Willey dismissed her concerns, saying that all she had to do was sleep with her husband and things would be fine.

Frers said this answer was typical for Becky Willey. Frers said in meetings with other pastors’ wives, Willey would teach wives that their number one role as wives was to give their husbands what no one else could—sex. Frers said Willey told wives that it was a sin for women to refuse their husbands sexually. This was one of the reasons Frers said she didn’t tell leaders at HBC Davenport about her husband’s sexual abuse. “I feared (my husband),” Frers said, “but I feared God even more.”

I have a problem with the whole premise of this. Which is this. If every so called church that existed perfectly taught how husbands and wives, men and woman were to act towards one another. That may stop 20% of the abuse going on in so called Christian circles. Abusers are abusers. Unrepentant sinners.
I’m obviously not saying there is not massive room for improvement, there always is. In fact if most men understood how to walk with their wives according to knowledge. Divorce in churches would drop precipitously.

But here is my issue with the entire premise of abuse in churches. AS IF there is more abusive behavior in churches than the world in general!!! That is a giant lie and the fake news premise I am attacking here. Every time a woman sleeps with her boyfriend in hopes that it will make him love her enough to marry her. She is being abused. How often does that happen? 50%?, 70% of the time?
How many children are now being born out of wedlock? 99% of those relationships are inherently nothing but abuse. Abuse of the first order!!!! How much more abusive can you get than impregnating a woman with your child then abandoning them??? Actually. I have an answer to that. Impregnating a woman with your child and influencing her to have an abortion. Now the poor woman has blood on her hands due to abuse.

So if we are going to talk about abuse, and who is doing the abusing. How about we start with the biggest abusers. Then make our way down to the churches who are not anywhere near as abusive as the world in general.

 

[LoricaLady]

Not even the national abuse hotline agrees with this line of reasoning. Difficult yes, impossible no.
https://www.thehotline.org/2013/09/05/is-change-possible-in-an-abuser/

The national abuse hotline has their opinion and they are entitled to it. The psychotherapists, like Dr. Carter, featured in the vid above, and countless counselors disagree with them. I have seen NARCs in my life up close. All of us have seen them, if we know what to recognize as they are pretty common. I have never seen one even come close to changing, though I have seen them get worse with age!

Dr. Carter has worked with many mental health professionals, as have some others in his field whom I have researched. Those were the people I was quoting. You are free to disagree. All you want. I hope though, that if you are involved with any NARCs, sociopaths or psychopaths, that you watch your back.

 

[topher694]

Hi Topher,

I recall that you are a pastor, and hopefully you are one of those exceptions I carved out at the beginning of my post. I've always appreciated your thoughtful comments on this board.

What were your thoughts on the article in the original post? And on the L&R style advice?

Have you encountered many women who are recovering from that type of treatment? If you do, what is your counsel for them?



This is the conflict that most pastors struggle to straddle. They want to minister to the souls. The patient for the pastor is instinctively the unbeliever's soul, not the marriage. The abuser rarely is able to change and in trying to minister to him is, from the many instances of it I've seen, at the expense of the wife.

(For sake of this thread, which specifically references the "submission" card, I reference the abuser as him. A believing husband suffering abuse from his wife has a different dynamic because while the "unconditional love" teaching we often hear has some parallels, it is different from an "unconditional submission" teaching. Neither gender's suffering under abuse can be minimized; both types of abuse cause deep suffering.)

I appreciate your comments.

Before I was a pastor myself my church had a member get ordained as a new pastor. She had been a victims advocate for over 20 years or something. She taught classes and trained teams in the church, which I received from. She now runs a ministry in the area I pastor, so aside from training we have a great local resource to send people to if needed.

One area I have noticed such things seem to lack is with the abuser. Yes, I realized it is rare for them to change, but I refuse to not try. With God all things are possible. Sometimes that seems to create a default position in people that they think I'm taking sides, which couldn't be further from the truth... I'm on God's side, end of story. On the few occasions I've had to minister to these guys, I've been very tough on them... That usually ends it, but at least I tried.