Gone over to the dark side...

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Both of these are unfortunate, but neither say anything about the truth of something.

What I get from his post is that the only way to live as Jesus taught is to be as perfect and holy as He is, and the consequences of not being as perfect as Jesus, is a fearful looking forward to judgment and the wrath of God. But being as perfect as Jesus is impossible for us because we can never be that perfect, so what is the answer do you think? I guess there had better be an answer otherwise the future doesn't look too promising for any of us!

 

[Sanoy]

What I get from his post is that the only way to live as Jesus taught is to be as perfect and holy as He is, and the consequences of not being as perfect as Jesus, is a fearful looking forward to judgment and the wrath of God. But being as perfect as Jesus is impossible for us because we can never be that perfect, so what is the answer do you think? I guess there had better be an answer otherwise the future doesn't look too promising for any of us!

@anx66 . Check out Luke 18 for the parable of the tax collector.

9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Jesus wasn't angry at the sinner. There isn't a single time where Jesus berated a sinner, or asked for the person to be perfect by his own will. Perfection comes by Christs blood, which makes us perfect in God's eyes. In every case, Jesus forgave those who repented and admonished the one who would not. The pharisees were as perfect as they come and He called them lawless ones because they did not love God. This voice you imagine of a God who whips those who fail is not the voice of God. God does not whip those who simply do wrong, He forgives them when they repent and reaches His hand down to raise them back up again.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

@anx66 . Check out Luke 18 for the parable of the tax collector.

9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Jesus wasn't angry at the sinner. There isn't a single time where Jesus berated a sinner, or asked for the person to be perfect by his own will. Perfection comes by Christs blood, which makes us perfect in God's eyes. In every case, Jesus forgave those who repented and admonished the one who would not. The pharisees were as perfect as they come and He called them lawless ones because they did not love God. This voice you imagine of a God who whips those who fail is not the voice of God. God does not whip those who simply do wrong, He forgives them when they repent and reaches His hand down to raise them back up again.

We are not given enough information to know for sure how that publican came to the point where he felt the need to come and kneel before God and ask forgiveness for being a sinner. My guess is that he realised he was a sinner, and because of that he knew that he was guilty before God and subject to judgment and condemnation. But he must have been told that God, being His judge, is also the forgiver of his sins if he humbled himself before Him, which he did, according to Jesus; and it was that humble and contrite approach by faith that justified him.

This is far different from the person who walks down to the altar of a church, prays a prayer, expecting Jesus to give him all the goodies, free lunches, guaranteed healing, prosperity, goosebumps up his spine and spiritual gifts, like many who come to receive Christ in this way. But they don't actually receive Christ. They receive "church" and "religion" and think they are justified because people come to them and say, "You're saved now!" These ones fail to get alone with God and get on their face and acknowledge that they are hopeless and helpless sinners worthy of judgment and hell, but knowing that God is a forgiving God, plead for mercy and grace and Jesus to become their Saviour.

 

[anx66]

Yes, extremely so as long as you continue to harden your heart and mock your Creator.
(Isaiah 66:15-16)

I no longer believe in a creator, so I can't be mocking him. I don't see any reason to believe he exists.

Which version of Christianity do you subscribe to?

 

[ajcarey]

That is exactly correct.

John 1:
13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

Doing this makes doubts impossible. The word of God carries you, not the strength of your decision.
The mind is a very fickle and plastic thing. I am glad my salvation is not dependent upon my mind. If doubt tries to creep in, I just slap it down with the Word of God.
When Jesus came up out of the water at His baptism, God said "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"
When the devil temped Jesus, how did he do it?
He used mental equations that questioned the validity of what God said:
“If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

How did Jesus respond to this? It was not to mess with bread... He spoke directly and said He was going by what God said... not by mental choices of reasoning.

"Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

The word from the mouth of God was "This is My beloved Son..."
That is all that mattered. Whether stones turned to bread or angels held Him up were not relevant. All that mattered was what God said. He said Jesus was His Son. Nothing but hearing. No choices. No decisions. Just what God said.
That was enough for Jesus. That is enough for me!
Paul echoed this in Galatians where people also tried to add something more to the hearing of faith:

Galatins 3:
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

What we receive from God is by "the hearing of faith."
By hearing.
You were saved by hearing. It happened before you even had a chance to choose or accept anything. You heard. Your spiritual eyes and ears were opened. The words entered in. The entrance of His Word gave light. No choices. Not logical constructs. Just the faith of words being heard and the resulting faith by hearing.
Very simple. No long complicated attempts to talk anyone into anything. No arguments or debates. Just words entering into the spirit by Christ speaking them. Faith comes. The heart believes. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
That is all.

As you use your own mind and reason to tell us not to use our minds and reason! Incredible.

 

[anx66]

The devil and his demons know all that, but they don't have saving faith. Saving faith can come only from the Holy Spirit when He sees that the seeker comes to Christ with all his heart, and shows that he means business with God and no one else and will not let God go until He blesses the seeker with saving faith.

Hoew do you come to christ with all your heart, when you no longer believe in God. That just doesn't make sense. I've been a serious, born again follower of "God" for 30 years, I just can now see that the whole thing doesn't make sense. Do you know there is a God, if so how?

 

[anx66]

How can you go through life with no evidence that there is a God, for me this was 30 years of my life, and still believe.

 

[anx66]

The problem is that you weren't Christ's in the first place. You may have had plenty of religion and churchianity but you did not achieve saving faith. Just walking up to an altar and saying a prayer does not make a genuine convert to Christ. So your future may very well be that you will be standing before Christ one day and saying, "Lord, Lord, don't you know that I was a Christian for 30 years?" And jesus could very well say to you, "I never knew you".
You need to seek God with all your heart so that He will take that heart of unbelief out of you and give you saving faith. The Scripture says that he who comes to God must believe (by faith) that He exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

1. To seek God, I would have to believe in his existance.
2. So, what you're saying is believe in him and he will remove the unbelief in him.
3. Isn't that sort of saying I should believe and then God will make me believe.

This doesn't make sense. It's contradictory.

 

[ajcarey]

I no longer believe in a creator, so I can't be mocking him. I don't see any reason to believe he exists.

Which version of Christianity do you subscribe to?

You do see reason as proven by the Scriptures, some quoted in this thread (Romans 1 Psalm 19, etc). Therefore you are mocking God by denying the Truth before you and refusing to live in accordance with it. What you are displaying is willful ignorance. You could know, but choose not to know. Your problem is deeper than what you are saying and it's a shame that some here are directly or indirectly giving you sympathy when you are defying the knowledge of God that you already possess.

I subscribe to the version of Christianity which takes it as axiomatic that the Apostles of Christ were the wisest, most understanding Christians whom God inspired as they penned the New Testament- so we ought to adopt their mindset, submit to their judgments, and follow their faith.

 

[anx66]

How does God's existence in any way depend on either of those?

It doesn't depend on them, but they would be evidence that he existed. God either exists or he doesn't. Jesus prayed that the church would be brought to complete unity. Do you see this happening?

What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you to prove that God exists?

How about healing my schizoaffective disorder, for one. I've been prayed for on and off for the 30 years I've had schizoaffective disorder, but I still have symptoms.

 

[anx66]

The honest gospel states when a person turns their back on Christ after hearing the gospel on multiple occasions, then there is only the fearful expectation of divine judgment and wrath. Jesus said that the people of Sodom would have a more tolerable existence in hell than the Jewish towns that heard the gospel from Jesus and saw His miracles and then rejected the gospel.

What are you saying, that I have no hope of salvation? Where is the quote in your first sentence from?

 

[anx66]

You do see reason as proven by the Scriptures, some quoted in this thread (Romans 1 Psalm 19, etc). Therefore you are mocking God by denying the Truth before you and refusing to live in accordance with it. What you are displaying is willful ignorance. You could know, but choose not to know. Your problem is deeper than what you are saying and it's a shame that some here are directly or indirectly giving you sympathy when you are defying the knowledge of God that you already possess.

I subscribe to the version of Christianity which takes it as axiomatic that the Apostles of Christ were the wisest, most understanding Christians whom God inspired as they penned the New Testament- so we ought to adopt their mindset, submit to their judgments, and follow their faith.

So, I know there is a God because of nature, but I don't believe in his existance. Does this not strike you as contradictory?

 

[ajcarey]

So, I know there is a God because of nature, but I don't believe in his existance. Does this not strike you as contradictory?

Yes, and the contradiction is in you because of your dishonesty.

 

[Sketcher]

It doesn't depend on them, but they would be evidence that he existed. God either exists or he doesn't. Jesus prayed that the church would be brought to complete unity. Do you see this happening?

To even have this objection, you have to believe that Jesus existed, had a close enough relationship with God to warrant a positive answer from him when he prayed, and that John accurately dictated the prayer when he was asleep and when Jesus was alone. How do you explain those conditions without God?

 

[aiki]

Hi there,
I've recently fallen away from a Christian belief. Partly due to other Christians and partly because I have re-examined my beliefs. I had been a Christian for 30ish years, and have now decided that there isn't enough evidence, as far as I can see, that a God exists.

Well, then I seriously doubt you ever really knew God at all. The God that I know I experience daily. He convicts me of sin, illuminates my mind to His truth, strengthens me in times of trial and temptation, transforms my desires and thinking, guides my steps and provides for my materials needs. After His doing so for more than fifty years, I would be insane to adopt the belief He does't exist.

 

[anx66]

Jesus, most probably did exist, but I don't believe that God exists. This prayer that Jesus possibly prayed has never been answered. There are many Christianitys and the church stands divided.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Jesus, most probably did exist, but I don't believe that God exists. This prayer that Jesus possibly prayed has never been answered. There are many Christianitys and the church stands divided.

Well you know that is what faith is. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. If you had a box car full of evidence that would be interesting, but it would not be faith. Faith does not come with evidence, and a lack of evidence does not cause faith to vanish. I just think you could not hang with Christianity for 30 year if you did not have faith. Especially when you did not even have any mental constructs. I am just saying the perhaps you have more faith than you think you do. If you wake up a week from now and have not forgotten about Him... then I suspect you do. If you have faith.. it just does not go away because of "no evidence." Because that is what faith is. Belief without evidence.

 

[anx66]

Well, then I seriously doubt you ever really knew God at all. The God that I know I experience daily. He convicts me of sin, illuminates my mind to His truth, strengthens me in times of trial and temptation, transforms my desires and thinking, guides my steps and provides for my materials needs. After His doing so for more than fifty years, I would be insane to adopt the belief He does't exist.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm on here to examine my views more deeply. To crystalize my beliefs or lack there of. It's kind of a n attempt to engage with Christians andsee if I can get some answers.

 

[anx66]

No I never knew God, because he doesn't appear to exist.

 

[anx66]

In what respect do people know God?