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Gone over to the dark side...

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by anx66, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    The bible says that whatsoever you ask, believing it will happen, will be given to you. This is in Mark I believe. Is this to the apostles or disciples of Jesus in general?
     
  2. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    Some Christians on here have said I should ask God to reveal himself, others have said that I shouldn't ask for a sign. So, which is it?
     
  3. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's exactly what I see among many Christians- supernatural authority justifying a particular way of life.
     
  4. MasterYourLife

    MasterYourLife Active Member

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    God reveals himself to the humble and those who seek him.
    That verse is for people, usually mockers, who say, "show us your God, make him give us a sign".
    Although being a believer and asking for a sign, you probably won't get the sign you want. I know when I was an early Christian, I wanted a big revelation like an angel appearing or miracle healing.

    Some people who God chooses may get a sign in the "magical" sense. However, I believe most believers will not, but rather receive the Holy Spirit.
    "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
     
  5. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    I've read the Bible many times. If other people have different views on what the truth is, from reading the same passages, then how will I know if I have the truth from reading those same passages? I hope this question makes sense.
     
  6. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    Yes, the question makes sense. I'll start by saying that many times people did not arrive at their conclusions of Bible truth from honestly reading the Bible. They jumped to conclusions after hearing a preacher preach on a text or topic who was too quick to come to a conclusion and too quick also to publish his bad conclusion. Do you see the cycle this causes?

    Most deception does indeed happen because 1) People don't really study the Bible carefully and examine what they hear by it. And 2) (not necessarily unrelated to the first) People don't/won't walk in the truth that they know. This darkens their heart, causes light to be withdrawn from them, and opens them also to further deception. 3) (Not unrelated to the first two but worth a separate category) People are content with the status quo that they're currently in. So when their church is wrong they stay with the error; and then when they're not comfortable with the status quo anymore, they walk away from church altogether or they find a new church based on the comfort and convenience of the status quo of that church.

    But there are exceptions, not everyone is always in one of these 3 categories; and people can and do wake up and get serious and honest with the Bible. And among such people there can be correction and edification which results in a true, biblical unity. I have seen this, though I've seen much of what you've seen too.

    Furthermore I'll say that the Bible is indeed an objective book that any two people can independently arrive at the same conclusions over, but a necessary aspect of this is usually that God uses people He has gifted to teach His Word and bring people to the unity of the faith which the Bible speaks of. But what if men He intends to raise up to do this don't stay faithful? They'll often not only fail in what God intended for them to do, they'll become imposters of the very thing which they should have and could have become. This happens too often. And then when one is contending for what is true and others are contending for what is false, there is the question of: Who are you going to believe? And the faithful man will usually be slandered, falsely accused, ignored, etc. Keep in mind too that there is a devil who is working to oppose the very thing you should have seen and say you wish you had seen. Have you considered that what you've seen may be proof the devil exists?

    Anyways, if you tell me about a certain topic that you've seen confusion over I can tell you some objective principles for arriving at right conclusions on it that those who you saw couldn't agree likely weren't following (though you may have had a faithful witness before you that people should have listened to, I don't know, but maybe).

    You also need to ask yourself honestly: Are you willing to follow consistent, definite, correct answers should you receive them? Because there is a bias in all of us (that we must overcome) which would rather we not find such answers so we can be excused in our minds from our obligation to truth and its inevitable life-shaking consequences when we heed it. Indeed, much confusion and chaos in Christendom stems from people resisting the following of the pure Truth of God's Word, which would clean them up and upset their lives in a way that they are unwilling to surrender to and trust God to help them handle. And yet often they will twist the Bible to try to say that they are being faithful rather than at least be honest enough to admit that they don't want the Word of God to rule their lives and thus own themselves to be unbelievers going forward.

    Consider with all of this then what the Bible accurately prophecied about the confusion in Christendom (note verse 5) which would occur. "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
     
  7. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    Is everything you believe the truth, or could you be wrong about something? If so which category does that place you in? If not are you one of the few people, relatively speaking that knows the truth?
     
  8. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    Of course I could be wrong about something. Potential to be wrong doesn't necessarily equate to not having a heart to understand, though not having a heart to understand and unwarranted confidence that you do understand exceedingly multiplies the chance of being wrong. I suspect that I would understand whatever issues were big enough for you to become disillusioned over Christians not being able to agree on. If you gave me an issue specifically, I could tell you some principles for arriving at a Biblical conclusion- and the principles themselves are just as important if not more so than the actual conclusion, especially considering the nature of your contention and/or frustration expressed here.
     
  9. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    You could be wrong about a lot of things, not just the odd thing.

    Here's a list of some disagreements I have come across:

    1) Tithing.
    2) The causes of mental illness.
    3) Once saved always saved.
    4) Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
    5) Gifts of the spirit.
    6) Word of faith (health and wealth "gospel").
    7) Confronting people who have sinned.
    8) Showing kindness to those who are not saved vs showing tough love.
    9) God speaks vs god doesn't speak
    10) You can prove God's existence vs God's existence is already known.
    11) Hell exists vs doesn't exist.
    12) God thrown people in hell vs people choose to go to hell.
    13) Young earth vs old earth.
    14) Pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath etc. No rapture.
    15) Flat earth vs globe.
    16) Death penalty vs no death penalty.
    17) Allowed to kill to protect yourself vs not able to kill to protect yourself (ie guns).

    etc.etc.etc
     
  10. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    The Bible has answers to all of those things, except a few of them are by nature not definite when you don't have all the info about a particular case (numbers 7 and 8).

    Are you telling me you don't think the Bible has a definite answer to any of these things? That it is the Bible's fault and not the Christian's fault if there is disagreement on such things? Do you really think there is any validity to the health and wealth gospel? Or that no death penalty has validity when God Himself instituted the death penalty in the society He most directly governed?

    In all of these things there are some who are right on them, some who are wrong on them. If others can't study for themselves and test what they hear preachers preaching and teaching on them without bias and the influence of self-preservation, then they won't come to Biblical unity- and that is a good thing. God only wants the honest and diligent who seek Him to come to a unity around His Word. There are no prayers for unity otherwise; rather the Biblical prayers for unity necessitate the weeding out of multitudes from unity in God's Will. And walking away from God's Word altogether and not keep striving and seeking him despite the bad you've seen is to weed yourself out.
     
  11. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    You seem to be saying you are one of the few who can study the bible and get all the right answers. Also, the bible is quite quiet with regard to mental health?

    I've had to edit this twice. Sorry.
     
  12. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    Alright, lets get to the nitty gritty. I have a mental health condition, which three different elders came up with three different reasons for what I was suffering. My question to you is what does God say in his word about Schizo-affective disorder (the depressive kind)? Just to clarify your perspective on mental health, before I continue on this topic.

    Steve C.
     
  13. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    You've almost got me moving back to the light. How do I actually do this? I've been in and out of the light for years, and I want to stay in the light. How do I stay, when all about me have different views to me.
     
  14. fwGod

    fwGod Well-Known Member

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    deleted by fwGod
     
  15. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    As I said in one of my last posts, I've been in and out of the Christian faith. I have a mental illness, which makes things that much more complicated. So, I want to know the truth, but people don't always believe the things I believe. That is the things I see in scripture. Also, I find it difficult to trust people, with my MH condition.
     
  16. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    It's possible that one of those elders was right, though obviously at least two were wrong. But whether two or three were wrong, the ones who were wrong were likely just too quick to give an answer without studying the Bible, praying, and getting help for something that they didn't know. It is okay sometimes to say "I honestly don't know" and doing that doesn't make someone an unspiritual person. But oftentimes people are too proud and think too highly of themselves to do that.

    So my perspective on mental health is that there are things about it I don't understand. Yet I venture to say that mental health issues CAN BE:
    1) Genetic issues which we inherit due to living in a fallen world. They can be overcome by the grace of God, but it may take a lot of time and growth as a Christian to see significant advancement there. Medication should not be totally ruled out and even the best elders do not necessarily have the understanding to prescribe meds better than secular professionals, though secular professionals can err bad in prescribing too and their directions and advice need to be taken with a grain of salt..
    2) Introduced and/or made worse due to one's own sin and its negative effects on the mind.
    3) The direct result of demonic possession.
    4) The result of environmental contamination- and thus would need to be dealt with through medical professionals and what is said about category 1 could also apply.
    5) Perhaps other reasons I'm not yet aware of.

    I'm guessing you heard 3 of those first 4 from the 3 elders. But know for sure that at least two were not heeding biblical wisdom.
     
  17. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    It's possible that one of those elders was right, though obviously at least two were wrong. But whether two or three were wrong, the ones who were wrong were likely just too quick to give an answer without studying the Bible, praying, and getting help for something that they didn't know. It is okay sometimes to say "I honestly don't know" and doing that doesn't make someone an unspiritual person. But oftentimes people are too proud and think too highly of themselves to do that.

    So my perspective on mental health is that there are things about it I don't understand. Yet I venture to say that mental health issues CAN BE:
    1) Genetic issues which we inherit due to living in a fallen world. They can be overcome by the grace of God, but it may take a lot of time and growth as a Christian to see significant advancement there. Medication should not be totally ruled out and even the best elders do not necessarily have the understanding to prescribe meds better than secular professionals, though secular professionals can err bad in prescribing too and their directions and advice need to be taken with a grain of salt..
    2) Introduced and/or made worse due to one's own sin and its negative effects on the mind.
    3) The direct result of demonic possession.
    4) The result of environmental contamination- and thus would need to be dealt with through medical professionals and what is said about category 1 could also apply.
    5) Perhaps other reasons I'm not yet aware of.

    I'm guessing you heard 3 of those first 4 from the 3 elders. But know for sure that at least two were not heeding biblical wisdom.
    Return to the Lord, confess your transgressions, submit to what you know for sure the Bible requires and teaches, and ask for His help to stay with Him and not depart anymore. Perhaps you know of a church that is submitted to Scripture that never wronged you, but if you don't be on your face before God for understanding and direction. If you have to pray and study for years before you find faithful fellowship and the answers you believe you need, then do that. But don't forsake you what you know now you ought to do, what you do understand, and what you should yet come to understand. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6) Believe that truth and cling to it. I could send you some links also from my Fellowship to resources that could really help you out a lot.
     
  18. anx66

    anx66 Member Supporter

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    Please do send the links. Many thanks. Steve C.
     
  19. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    No problem. About to do so in a private message.
     
  20. AservantofGodandthelordJC

    AservantofGodandthelordJC Member

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    no its true, since light and darkness can't be experienced at the same time, if one were to attempt to 'show off' a miracle, they would be in darkness (pride) and therefore be unable to, if someone with divine power was able to use it imperfectly they could do a lot of bad things but it's impossible. You don't understand because you only know darkness. It's backwards right now.

    It's like Plato's allegory of the cave, your world is what you see, but it's not reality. Since everyone only knows sin, that's what normal is to you, darkness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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