Gone over to the dark side...

[SavedByGrace3]

It is not up to you....
There is a certain place in our ego that assumes, and wants us to think that we are in control of these matters. It tells us it is up to our decisions and our choices matter in these eternal matters. In other words we want to tell ourselves that we are in control and that our choices actually have an effect on everything that happens to us.
Let me suggest that this is a trick of the mind. Your choices and decisions may not affect your life as much as you think. Free will is an example. First of all choices and decisions only matter when you can affect the issue at hand. For instance, you can "decide" all you want, and "choose" to a certainty that the moon is made of green cheese. In reality your choice and decisions have no effect on the substance of the moon. We would only be fooling ourselves if we think they did. Next we have to realize that as much as we would like to think our choices magically effect reality into a matter, they do not. Again, it is only ego that tells us we have the authority and power to effect a change in a matter by a "choice."
Point at hand is the Lordship of Jesus. Preachers and teachers have suggested the notion that we can "make Jesus Lord" or that we can "ask Jesus into our lives" or "make Jesus Lord of our lives" or "accept Jesus as Christ" as well as many other false assumptions. I say false assumptions for two reasons. First we do not have the power or authority to do any of these. As stated above, just because you make a "choice" that does not mean you have the authority to effect it, nor do you have the power to make it happen. We do not. Second besides the fact that you cannot do any of the above, you do not have to.

The scripture says a number of things that you cannot change.
1. Jesus died for your sins. You cannot change this, and it does not matter if you accept it or not. Billions of souls do not "accept" this fact, yet their sins have been forgiven. Their sins have been taken away by the lamb of God. It is true even for those who have never heard of it. Your accepting or rejecting it has no effect on the the reality of this fact.

John 1:
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

Your sins are gone. Accept, believe, receive, deny... none of that matters. He still took away your sins. Even if you never heard of this before... it is still true.

2. Jesus is Lord and Christ. And the important issue here is that God made Him Lord and Christ.
Speaking to those who crucified Jesus, Peter said:

Acts 2:
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord and Christ.​

This is true regardless of what you decide, choose, accept, receive, or make. It is true for those who have never heard of the gospel. Those who suggest that you "have to make Jesus Lord" are mistaken. They unintentionally suggest to you that Jesus is not Lord. Yet not only does the scripture say that God made Jesus Lord, it also says Jesus is Lord of all... even YOU.

Romans 10:
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

Reject, accept, receive, and try to make Him Lord all you want. None of what you do makes any difference whatsoever. Regardless of what you do, He is still Lord and Lord of all. God made Jesus Lord and Lord of all. You cannot change that. You cannot change it. You by your messily little choices are not going to undo that. And not to be insulting... but He is your Lord right now, and He is not asking your permission. He is not asking for it nor does He need it.

3. Lastly, He is merciful to everyone who calls on His name.
Romans 10:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
No struggling with commitments or strength of belief. No wondering if He really did it or if you were sincere or concentrating hard enough. All that is silly. Just a simple action. Do it and it is over. It no longer matters what you think or do or say or decide or choose. All that is irrelevant. If you ever did this in your life, the matter is completely settled. You called, He extended His mercy. You can change your mind and choose whatever you want. It only changes what is between your ears. It does not change Him (again with our ego thinking our choices and free will have the power to change reality, they do not). You may change... He does not. He is not going to go back on His word because of some foolish notion we come up with.
All this is completely up to Him. Not you.
We fool ourselves into thinking it was our choice and our will that made these things happen.
It was not:
John 1:
13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

Nothing could be plainer. It was not your will. Not some choice or decision you made. If the gospel ever came your way and you responded to it, it happened because He choose you. He arraigned for the gospel to be preached into you.

1 Peter 1:12
“Unto whom it was reveal, that not unto themselves,
but unto us they did minister the things,
which are now reported unto you by them
that have preached the gospel into you
with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven;
which things the angels desire to look into”

My point here is that if you have ever seen the gospel and held it as true, it is only because He chose you and inserted the understanding into you. Those who were not chosen do not see it, regardless of how much the have heard. I know myself I went through years of Sunday school and catechism which detailed many of these things. Despite all that exposure I did not see it because He had not inserted it into me. But once He did, it was over. It was not my choice, decision, or agreement. It was His, for His purpose, for His sake. Not ours. It is not about us. It is about Him and His will and choice.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi there,
I've recently fallen away from a Christian belief. Partly due to other Christians and partly because I have re-examined my beliefs. I had been a Christian for 30ish years, and have now decided that there isn't enough evidence, as far as I can see, that a God exists.

Regards
Steve C.

The problem is that you weren't Christ's in the first place. You may have had plenty of religion and churchianity but you did not achieve saving faith. Just walking up to an altar and saying a prayer does not make a genuine convert to Christ. So your future may very well be that you will be standing before Christ one day and saying, "Lord, Lord, don't you know that I was a Christian for 30 years?" And jesus could very well say to you, "I never knew you".

John said about the great number of disciples who departed from Jesus when He said that true discipleship was not the miracles or the free lunches, but that soon He was going to die and they needed to be identified with His death, that they went from Christ because they weren't of Him in the first place.

Just having religion doesn't mean a change of heart toward Christ. If you heart was right with Christ, you would never depart from Him even without evidence that God exists. The Scripture says, "Blessed are those who have not seen and believed". It also says that faith is the evidence of things not seen and the assurance of things hoped for. You have no evidence because you have no real saving faith. If you had real saving faith, that would be more than enough evidence for you.

You need to seek God with all your heart so that He will take that heart of unbelief out of you and give you saving faith. The Scripture says that he who comes to God must believe (by faith) that He exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

I had been a Christian for 30ish years, and have now decided that there isn't enough evidence, as far as I can see, that a God exists.

If you want evidence, look around...

1The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.

--Psalm 19

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you want evidence, look around...

1The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.

--Psalm 19

The devil and his demons know all that, but they don't have saving faith. Saving faith can come only from the Holy Spirit when He sees that the seeker comes to Christ with all his heart, and shows that he means business with God and no one else and will not let God go until He blesses the seeker with saving faith.

 

[ajcarey]

The devil and his demons know all that, but they don't have saving faith. Saving faith can come only from the Holy Spirit when He sees that the seeker comes to Christ with all his heart, and shows that he means business with God and no one else and will not let God go until He blesses the seeker with saving faith.

No one will mean business with God and not let Him go until and unless they respond properly to the evidence before them. The devil and his demons' problem is that they don't/won't do that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No one will mean business with God and not let Him go until and unless they respond properly to the evidence before them. The devil and his demons' problem is that they don't/won't do that.

It is not a matter of the devil and his demons don't or won't do it; they can't. God has blocked them from ever being destined for hell.

In the same way, an unconverted person can't be truly converted unless God opens their spiritual eyes and gives them the saving faith to be able to truly receive Christ as Saviour. A person can walk up to the altar, say the sinners prayer, and be never so religious from then on, but still be on the road to hell. There will be many faithful church members in hell who did not press into Christ for saving faith, but depended on their church attendance, service, and morality to get them to heaven.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

People who assume their salvation came as a result of a choice also come to doubt that choice or the power or strength of that choice. They think that salvation is the result of an action of the mind and will. Because of this they think they can reverse their salvation by a choice or by will. If your salvation is dependent upon some commitment you made or the strength of your mental conviction.. then you will no doubt come to doubt your salvation. The devil will attack you and say "you were not sincere when you made that decision" or "you do not really believe, the fact you have doubts prove it." You will be plagued with these thoughts because you think your salvation is dependent upon you, your will, and your choices. Realize that your salvation is completely dependent on God and His word. You must stand on the Word and nothing else. You are saved because of what He said and did, not on the strength of your commitment or choice.
"Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Did you call? Then it is over. It is out of your control. You can no more unsave yourself than you could save yourself. A choice did not save you and a choice cannot unsave you. Your will and choices are not going to affect Him at all. It is silly to think they will.

 

[ajcarey]

It is not a matter of the devil and his demons don't or won't do it; they can't. God has blocked them from ever being destined for hell.

In the same way, an unconverted person can't be truly converted unless God opens their spiritual eyes and gives them the saving faith to be able to truly receive Christ as Saviour. A person can walk up to the altar, say the sinners prayer, and be never so religious from then on, but still be on the road to hell. There will be many faithful church members in hell who did not press into Christ for saving faith, but depended on their church attendance, service, and morality to get them to heaven.

Who said anything about depending on such things to get to heaven? The devil and the demons are going to hell because they rebelled against their Creator despite all the evidence they had of His eternal power and Godhead so they could try to play God themselves; and this is what lost man needs to repent of doing regarding the evidence that he has (not as bright as the devil and demons had, but still more than sufficient) in order to come to Christ in faith to partake of His grace. No one will believe the Gospel unto salvation who does not first repent of denying the true God's rightful authority over them- otherwise man's lack of saving faith would be God's fault; and it is not.

Revelation 14:6-7: "6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

The devil and his demons know all that, but they don't have saving faith.

That Psalm was not written for them either, but for us fallen children of Adam. I won't make a determination as to the OP's actual state (people say a lot of things and don't even know why), but I will stand behind the declaration made in Psalm 19.

 

[ajcarey]

People who assume their salvation came as a result of a choice also come to doubt that choice or the power or strength of that choice. They think that salvation is the result of an action of the mind and will. Because of this they think they can reverse their salvation by a choice or by will. If your salvation is dependent upon some commitment you made or the strength of your mental conviction.. then you will no doubt come to doubt your salvation. The devil will attack you and say "you were not sincere when you made that decision" or "you do not really believe, the fact you have doubts prove it." You will be plagued with these thoughts because you think your salvation is dependent upon you, your will, and your choices. Realize that your salvation is completely dependent on God and His word. You must stand on the Word and nothing else. You are saved because of what He said and did, not on the strength of your commitment or choice.
"Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Did you call? Then it is over. It is out of your control. You can no more unsave yourself than you could save yourself. A choice did not save you and a choice cannot unsave you. Your will and choices are not going to affect Him at all. It is silly to think they will.

You have made a choice to believe the doctrine which you believe and you very well know that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord is a true Christian. Stop giving people an excuse to rebel against God. He has enabled all men to repent and exercise saving faith if they will only cooperate with His grace which has appeared to all men, yet only saves those who come into line with that.

Titus 2:11-14: "11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That Psalm was not written for them either, but for us fallen children of Adam. I won't make a determination as to the OP's actual state (people say a lot of things and don't even know why), but I will stand behind the declaration made in Psalm 19.

He has declared that he has walked away from Christ. God will take him at his word and bring him to judgment and what he said will be used in evidence against him.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You have made a choice to believe the doctrine which you believe and you very well know that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord is a true Christian. Stop giving people an excuse to rebel against God. He has enabled all men to repent and exercise saving faith if they will only cooperate with His grace which has appeared to all men, yet only saves those who come into line with that.

Titus 2:11-14: "11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Perhaps you misunderstand what I am saying.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by a word spoken by Christ into our hearts. It does not come by a mental decision. Decisions do not inculcate belief. Belief is not a mental thing, it is a spiritual thing. Faith comes by hearing. I like to say faith comes by revelation, or mere exposure to the truth. The eyes are opened. The light shines in. Once the light shines in revelation is achieved. The heart believes. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and the words that are spoken take the form of calling on the name of the Lord. None of this is by choice. We can claim no virtue or make no boast about rightly choosing. He saved us by His will.
John 1:
13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

God did it. His will, not ours.
He opened our eyes. No choice there.
He shown His light into us. No choice there.
His word just entered into us. No choice there.
His saved us for His purposes and His sake... not our own.

I wrote a book years ago called "Suddenly Saved." That speaks at length about this.
We fool ourselves into thinking we went down to the alter and effected our salvation by some word or deed that we performed. Not so. It was Him. All Him.
I cannot help being saved. It is really out of my hands. I am a servant and a child. I am a fish in a net. A sheep in His flock. He did not ask my permission, nor did He need it. The idea that the Great Almighty God of heaven needs my permission to do something is laughable. I used to think this way until I saw what the gospel is and what is behind the power of faith and the word. His word is impossible to resist. You cannot stop it, prevent it, or thwart it. Once it enters into you, you are helpless before it's power. It is not going to return to Him void. It is silly to think we can void it by some silly mental choice or decision. Try to change yourself into a bird or a cow. That is how foolish it is to think our choices mean anything at all. They flutter around in space and eventually fade away powerless, meaningless, with no substance or power.
God's word on the other hand is powerful and invincible to all that the devil and the world throws up against it.

 

[ajcarey]

Perhaps you misunderstand what I am saying.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by a word spoken by Christ into our hearts. It does not come by a mental decision. Decisions do not inculcate belief. Belief is not a mental thing, it is a spiritual thing. Faith comes by hearing. I like to say faith comes by revelation, or mere exposure to the truth. The eyes are opened. The light shines in. Once the light shines in revelation is achieved. The heart believes. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and the words that are spoken take the form of calling on the name of the Lord. None of this is by choice. We can claim no virtue or make no boast about rightly choosing. He saved us by His will.
John 1:
13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

God did it. His will, not ours.
He opened our eyes. No choice there.
He shown His light into us. No choice there.
His word just entered into us. No choice there.
His saved us for His purposes and His sake... not our own.

I wrote a book years ago called "Suddenly Saved." That speaks at length about this.
We fool ourselves into thinking we went down to the alter and effected our salvation by some word or deed that we performed. Not so. It was Him. All Him.
I cannot help being saved. It is really out of my hands. I am a servant and a child. I am a fish in a net. A sheep in His flock. He did not ask my permission, nor did He need it. The idea that the Great Almighty God of heaven needs my permission to do something is laughable. I used to think this way until I saw what the gospel is and what is behind the power of faith and the word. His word is impossible to resist. You cannot stop it, prevent it, or thwart it. Once it enters into you, you are helpless before it's power. It is not going to return to Him void. It is silly to think we can void it by some silly mental choice or decision. Try to change yourself into a bird or a cow. That is how foolish it is to think our choices mean anything at all. They flutter around in space and eventually fade away powerless, meaningless, with no substance or power.
God's word on the other hand is powerful and invincible to all that the devil and the world throws up against it.

Being a spiritual thing does not eliminate there being a mental aspect to it. Jesus said that those on the wayside were those who heard but did not understand. We have to understand the Word with our minds (which many neglect to do to their own blame) and embrace the Truth of the Word from our hearts, which includes surrender of the will to God's authority "Not my will, but thy will be done. Have thine own way, Lord." God's grace is striving with all men to bring them to this and it is truly laughable that God would reprove anyone for their unbelief if faith were all from Him and impossible for me or for anyone to resist. Your words are justifying the wicked who refuse to worship God from the heart and keep His commandments, as if they are not the problem and the chief obstacle to their own salvation.

And why are you trying to talk us into believing that we have no choice and it has nothing to do with us at all? If this is really true, we would believe such whether you talked us into it or not and whether we chose to or believe it or not.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

And why are you trying to talk us into believing that we have no choice and it has nothing to do with us at all? If this is really true, we would believe such whether you talked us into it or not and whether we chose to or believe it or not.

That is exactly correct.

John 1:
13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

Doing this makes doubts impossible. The word of God carries you, not the strength of your decision.
The mind is a very fickle and plastic thing. I am glad my salvation is not dependent upon my mind. If doubt tries to creep in, I just slap it down with the Word of God.
When Jesus came up out of the water at His baptism, God said "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"
When the devil temped Jesus, how did he do it?
He used mental equations that questioned the validity of what God said:
“If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

How did Jesus respond to this? It was not to mess with bread... He spoke directly and said He was going by what God said... not by mental choices of reasoning.

"Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

The word from the mouth of God was "This is My beloved Son..."
That is all that mattered. Whether stones turned to bread or angels held Him up were not relevant. All that mattered was what God said. He said Jesus was His Son. Nothing but hearing. No choices. No decisions. Just what God said.
That was enough for Jesus. That is enough for me!
Paul echoed this in Galatians where people also tried to add something more to the hearing of faith:

Galatins 3:
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

What we receive from God is by "the hearing of faith."
By hearing.
You were saved by hearing. It happened before you even had a chance to choose or accept anything. You heard. Your spiritual eyes and ears were opened. The words entered in. The entrance of His Word gave light. No choices. Not logical constructs. Just the faith of words being heard and the resulting faith by hearing.
Very simple. No long complicated attempts to talk anyone into anything. No arguments or debates. Just words entering into the spirit by Christ speaking them. Faith comes. The heart believes. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
That is all.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Our faith does not lie in the strength of our own choices, decisions, commitments, or convictions.
All these are weak and not the stuff of faith.
Our faith lies in the power and certainty of God's word.
That is real faith!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hi there,
I've recently fallen away from a Christian belief. Partly due to other Christians and partly because I have re-examined my beliefs. I had been a Christian for 30ish years, and have now decided that there isn't enough evidence, as far as I can see, that a God exists.

Regards
Steve C.

Experience tells me this is not the way it happens. People who fall from faith do so in a "slip away" manner. They do not show up in a forum or in a church and make an announcement such as this. They just slip away into obscurity. They just do not care enough to take the time and effort to do this.
More often someone will begin to have doubts and mental objections, and make this sort of statement looking for help.
People who have been in the faith for 30 years rarely fall away. The genuineness of their conversion is confirmed by the longevity of their stay. You cannot make it that long if you do not have something, if it is not real. Most "head deep" false believers make it for a week or two and then wander off. It is not cool and they don't let you do what you want.... so they leave showing they were never saved to begin with. If their "conversion" is a mental one... then they only hang around as long as their mental notion does. It was not genuine heart conversion, so it fades like the latest fad.
But 30 years. I don't think that is fake or merely a mental assent. I think there is faith there.

 

[Tom 1]

Hi there,
I've recently fallen away from a Christian belief. Partly due to other Christians and partly because I have re-examined my beliefs. I had been a Christian for 30ish years, and have now decided that there isn't enough evidence, as far as I can see, that a God exists.

Regards
Steve C.

Did you get a lightsaber upgrade?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The honest gospel states when a person turns their back on Christ after hearing the gospel on multiple occasions, then there is only the fearful expectation of divine judgment and wrath. Jesus said that the people of Sodom would have a more tolerable existence in hell than the Jewish towns that heard the gospel from Jesus and saw His miracles and then rejected the gospel.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Did you get a lightsaber upgrade?

He will be taken to the deepest part of hell, given a shovel and told to start digging.

 

[Sanoy]

Christians living as Jesus taught. And unity of belief amongst Christians.

Both of these are unfortunate, but neither say anything about the truth of something.