Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[Contenders Edge]

Here's more of the full counsel of Scripture:

Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

God has prepared a heavenly city in a better heavenly country for Abraham and all of the faithful irrespective of what flows in their and our veins.

They and we have no interest in, or desire to inhabit, any earthly "promised land", for they and we were and are "strangers and pilgrims on the earth".

Their and our abode is above.

You forget that God declared that He would not make a full end to Israel (Jer. 30:11) and their possession of the promised land would be forever. (Ex. 32:13, Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) The heavenly city and country to which we look forward will eventually be brought to earth when it is created anew (Rev. chapters 21-22) of which both Israel and the Church are destined to be a part.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Do you deny that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

.

It is symbolic where the context declares it or at the very least implies symbolism and literal where it is presented as literal; no different than the rest of scripture.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do you deny that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Imho, both Preterists and Futurists are guilty of not being able to discern the Hebrew symbology in Revelation in relation to the OT.

That aside, gives me a chance to bring up this thread, is any spirit led Christians are will to look at it and perhaps respond.......

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Aug 30, 2011

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

While most everyone recognizes Revelation as symbolic, some folks argue it as being actual and non-symbolic, to the point of one man proposing that an actual red dragon with seven heads lurks in outer space! (It's true!). However, it's an indictment against modern Christianity's lack of biblical study to not immediately recognize the myriad of symbols in the Revelation that were taken from other internal biblical references.

THE BIBLE INTERPRETS ITSELF

The symbols CAN NEVER be haphazardly concocted. The interpretation is NOT UP FOR GRABS! It is filled with references to Hebrew customs, noted in the same Bible, which I will endeavour to show in a limited fashion here.

But one should be suspicious of futuristic slants on the book immediately upon considering what impression the futurist interpretation puts upon its adherents. What, in their mind, is stressed in the Revelation?
The answer to that question is never what the Revelation actually stresses, in my opinion.

As a former futurist, and other honest futurists must admit, I was conscious of the Revelation being about "The end of the world." It was about evil rising up. It was about horror coming. And I later realized it was precisely the opposite arena as to what the book said of it's own self

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

The key to interpreting the Revelation is, for the most part, the Old Testament. Period.

And you apply these symbols used in Revelation that were taken from the Old Testament to the life of Jesus and the early church. You find the stories of the Old Testament, from which Revelation takes references, actually PARALLEL Jesus and the early church!

I guarantee, that if you were to start recognizing this, you would wonder in absolute glory at the wisdom of God in ending the Bible with this book! (And I might add you would chuckle at the literal interpretation). You would!

First of all, Revelation begins using TEMPLE SYMBOLS. Candlesticks mentioned as being BEHIND JOHN, who has to TURN and see where the voice comes. When he TURNS, he sees the seven candlesticks (the seven-branched menorah). If he had to TURN, then where in the tabernacle would he have faced if the candlesticks were directly BEHIND HIM? They were SOUTH in the holy place. That means, John faced NORTH.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
=======================================
Here are some of the ones I have come up with. Please feel free to add or comment on them.

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Books in Daniel Daniel 7:9 and 11:10.
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Cried and joy Temple/City: Ezra 3:12,13 and Reve 18:18, 19:4
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Ear to hear: Isaiah 6:9,10 and Matt 13:15, Reve 2,3,13
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Holy Holy Holy Isaiah 6:6 and Revelation 4:8
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Jericho, Priest and Trumpets: Joshua 6:4, Hebrews 11:30, Matt 24:31, Reve 8:6
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Lift hands to heaven and swore..: Daniel 2:7 and Reve 10:5
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Light Revelation to Israel and Nations: Isaiah 9:2, Luke 2:32, Reve 1:1
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Moses and Elijah, fire falling, as is also seen in Revelation.
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Moses and Elijah
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Mountain of fire cast into Sea
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Pierced: Zech 12:10 and Reve 1:7
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Sacrifice/Supper of God: Ezek 39:17 and Reve 19:17
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Sanctuary/Tabernacle filled with smoke
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Silence/Hush: Zech 1:7, 2:13 and Reve 8:1
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Sodom and Egypt: Matt 2:15, Reve 11:8
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Song of Moses: Exodus 15:1 and Revelation 15:3
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Spirit lifting, taking Ezekiel and John
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Stars 7
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Tree of Life and Garden: Genesis 3:24 and Reve 2:7
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Whip.........Nahum 3:2, John 2:15,
=====================

Which is precisely why people shouldn't read the book of Revelation before reading and understanding the Old Testament. IOW, I've seen some of the most bizarre "interpretations" of the book of Revelation which in no way match up with what had been foretold in the Old Testament. Psssttttt...the "pre-tribulation rapture" nonsense being right at the top of the list.

I really know nothing about the book of Revelations. I have a strange theology about the end times that goes something like this....."who cares". LOL What I mean is that the end will come and there is nothing we can do about it, so who cares how it happens.....rapture, no rapture, pre/post trib, etc. There is nothing we can do about it....what matters is that if we are going to Heaven or not.

from scratch said: ↑
I think there is plenty in the book of Revelation besides the OT prophecy. For instance the message to the 7 churches and the Book of Life. The book of Life has nothing to do with the OT.

hmmmmm....gonna chomp on this a bit....

brinny said: ↑
i become more and more fascinated with Revelation. Several things stand out for me...one is that John is being used of God, to write down what he sees and what he is told to write....along with these verses that keep coming to mind when i read Revelation:

"20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" ~John 21:20-23
Awesome!

 

[Contenders Edge]

They were full participants in the old covenant.

Does God recognize today's talmud to be the same as His old covenant?

That they were full participants in the Old Covenant is what is important in the sense that any Gentiles living amongst the Israelites were treated by God the same as any Israelite. Therefore, they would naturally receive upon themselves either the same blessings or curses as the entire nation of Israel depending upon their attitude towards God and they share in the same promises.

It will be no different when the nation of Israel finally embraces Jesus in that all that pertains to Israel will be fulfilled; any Gentiles living among them will also partake in the same promised blessings.

 

[keras]

The prophecies you are referring to were foretold by the pre-exile prophets. After the end of the exile and captivity, that distinction disappears from the scriptures.

I believe what the scripture presents and it does not teach that these 144,000 be "assigned" a tribe. Each member of that group will already belong to the tribe from which they are descended as is written.

If you think the 2 Houses of Judah and Israel have rejoined already, then Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled. But plainly, obviously; it is NOT.
The Jewish people in no way are all of Israel, they represent just 6/12ths, the rest remain scattered among the nations. Soon to be gathered and blessed as Ezekiel 37 prophesies.

Re the 144,000; only the 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin have people alive today who claim that ancestry. Even most of them are doubtful.
So we rely on God, who does know His people, Amos 9:9, to sort us out. He does this, as He stands on Mt Zion; Revelation 14:1-5

 

[BABerean2]

It is symbolic where the context declares it or at the very least implies symbolism and literal where it is presented as literal; no different than the rest of scripture.

If you can show us any place in the Old Testament where we can find exactly 12,000 in each of the 12 tribes, then maybe we will see the truth about the choice between literal, and symbolic in this case...

.

 

[jgr]

It will be no different when the nation of Israel finally embraces Jesus in that all that pertains to Israel will be fulfilled; any Gentiles living among them will also partake in the same promised blessings.

You've said "What defines a Jew is not where they presently dwell but their ethnicity."

Gentiles are definitionally non-ethnic.

How can they partake in the same promised blessings?

 

[Contenders Edge]

A covenant is an agreement. The old covenant agreement involved responsibilities from 2 parties: God and Israel. If the old covenant agreement is done away with, then so are the responsibilities of both parties.

If your claim is that God's responsibilities under the covenant are still in effect, you should be able to show clear NT scripture (not debatable interpretation), that states this.

Is the faithful keeping of promises a responsibility that God is no longer bound to? If that were the case concerning the least of all promises He has made, how then can we be sure that even the better promises will not be canceled out? He who has been declared faithful could no longer be called faithful because in order for God to be called faithful, He cannot be faithful just some of the time. He must be faithful in fulfilling what He has declared to fulfill all the time.

Please answer my question first, which was asked first, and then I will answer your questions. Again, What is the natural olive tree that the natural branches were broken off of, Israel or the Church?

What the tree itself represents will tell us what branches were broken off.

Correct, Paul believed the passage in Hosea about the northern kingdom being united with the southern kingdom was being fulfilled by the Gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. So why wouldn't this same principle be applied to Ezekiel 37, which is also about the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom being united under one king?

The bloodlines of the divorced, exiled, and scattered descendants of the northern kingdom mixed with the nations. I have no idea what nationalities their descendants are. Paul simply refers to them as gentiles. So that's what they were.

Paul confirms hosea 1, which is about the northern kingdom being united with the southern kingdom is fulfilled with the gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23-26). ​

​

Paul never called the Ten Northern tribes of Israel Gentiles, yet he still believed that the passage from Hosea he was citing was in reference to the Gentiles, but he never associated them with the ten northern tribes. The reunification of Israel as foretold by Ezekiel does not mention Gentiles as being a part of the reunified Israel. When Ezekiel does mention Gentiles, he mentions them as the nations and people from which the people of Israel are called out and brought back to their land. (Ezek. 37:21)

The fact that we do not know what nations descended from Ephraim is an indicator that no nations have yet descended from that particular tribe, but should it be revealed that there are nations that trace their origins back to the tribe of Ephraim, we could then declare such to be a prophetic fulfillment.

Greeks lived all over the known world in what is known as the greek diaspora.

Greeks and their culture had a wide range throughout much of the known world even before the so-called Greek diaspora. The Grecian empire ranged from Greece to India and even extended down into parts of Africa.

So who are God's people, those that reject Him, or those obedient to Him? Can God's people reject the Son?

Ultimately, the people of God are and will be those who receive Jesus as Lord yet the people of Israel were made the people God by promise whereas we who are not of Israel are made the people of God by adoption, however, being a child of the promise does not make one a child of God.

This the Church and Israel have in common: Neither always obey the Lord like we should.

I disagree that God's people are those that reject him.

I never said that God's people are those who reject Him. I have also said that what will one day remain of the nation of Israel will be those who embrace Christ; thus the nation is preserved through the godly among the Israelites.

And literal being born again is not consistent with repentance and turning to God. but the picture of birth points to new creation through Christ. Again a shadow is not an exact replica.

A people being punished for their wickedness is not a picture of the perfect sacrificial offering either.

Context = 1st century Jerusalem which bears no resemblance to modern day Israel.

That is because first century Jerusalem was made desolate, but its present existence is proof that it recovered from that desolation.

Straw man argument.

To which you apparently have no answer.

He has, through His Son (1 peter 2:9).

The cited passage pertains to the Church, not Israel yet like Israel, we are called a peculiar people, yet unlike Israel whose priesthood was designated to a single tribe, the priesthood we receive is for all who follow Christ.

Again, shadows and pictures that point to reality in Christ.

Marriage is used as an illustration but never called a shadow but again, another subject for another thread.

God spoke to the prophets in visions and dreams, which were riddles and parables. They were pictures pointing to Christ. We should always use scripture to interpret scripture. Again, shadows are not exact replicas.

Those shadows, riddles, and parables have also been given their explanations but we cannot declare anything to be a shadow, riddle, or parable pertaining to anything unless the scriptures declare such themselves.

Visions that point to reality in Christ, not realities themselves.

No evidence of symbolism in Ezekiel 40-47. It is all presented as literal yet the Temple Ezekiel sees is where the throne of Christ will be at a certain time to come.

Will you ever leave the body Christ, whether you are on earth or in heaven?

No but the difference is that in Heaven, we are in His direct presence whereas on earth, He is present within us.

 

[Contenders Edge]

If you think the 2 Houses of Judah and Israel have rejoined already, then Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled. But plainly, obviously; it is NOT.
The Jewish people in no way are all of Israel, they represent just 6/12ths, the rest remain scattered among the nations. Soon to be gathered and blessed as Ezekiel 37 prophesies.

Re the 144,000; only the 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin have people alive today who claim that ancestry. Even most of them are doubtful.
So we rely on God, who does know His people, Amos 9:9, to sort us out. He does this, as He stands on Mt Zion; Revelation 14:1-5

That Israel is a unified nation ought to be an obvious and indisputable fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. We are simply waiting for what hasn't been fulfilled to fall into place. I will concede only to the fact that not all of those of Israelite descent have yet been gathered back to the land of Israel. Whoever is not brought back to the land in this present age will be returned there by Messiah when He returns.

And when the 144,000 are chosen out of all the tribes listed, it should be obvious that when that day does come, that there will be enough Israelites at that time who can claim that ancestry for certain.

 

[Contenders Edge]

If you can show us any place in the Old Testament where we can find exactly 12,000 in each of the 12 tribes, then maybe we will see the truth about the choice between literal, and symbolic in this case...

.

The scripture does not say that each tribe only has 12,000 people, but that 12,000 are chosen out of each tribe listed in Revelation chapter 7 to fulfill the purpose for which they are designated for that specific time period in history.

 

[Contenders Edge]

You've said "What defines a Jew is not where they presently dwell but their ethnicity."

Gentiles are definitionally non-ethnic.

How can they partake in the same promised blessings?

Gentiles, obviously, are a much broader base than the Jewish people are on the world scale as they are comprised of various different nationalities and ethnicities. But any of the Gentiles dwelling within the nation of Israel could potentially experience the blessings that the Jews will when they receive the Messiah and His New Covenant depending on whom they've aligned themselves with. After all, what happens to the Israelites amongst whom they dwell (good or bad) is going to inevitably affect them as well.

The number of Gentiles presently living in Israel is relatively small in comparison to the number of Jews living there and that number will continue to get smaller as time goes on.

 

[BABerean2]

The scripture does not say that each tribe only has 12,000 people, but that 12,000 are chosen out of each tribe listed in Revelation chapter 7 to fulfill the purpose for which they are designated for that specific time period in history.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

.

 

[jgr]

But any of the Gentiles dwelling within the nation of Israel could potentially experience the blessings that the Jews will when they receive the Messiah and His New Covenant depending on whom they've aligned themselves with. After all, what happens to the Israelites amongst whom they dwell (good or bad) is going to inevitably affect them as well.

What Scripture says that Messiah's blessings are dependent upon whom one aligns oneself with?

 

[keras]

That Israel is a unified nation ought to be an obvious and indisputable fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. We are simply waiting for what hasn't been fulfilled to fall into place. I will concede only to the fact that not all of those of Israelite descent have yet been gathered back to the land of Israel. Whoever is not brought back to the land in this present age will be returned there by Messiah when He returns.

And when the 144,000 are chosen out of all the tribes listed, it should be obvious that when that day does come, that there will be enough Israelites at that time who can claim that ancestry for certain.

The Jews know very well that the other ten tribes have not rejoined as yet. They don't advertise that fact, because the deceived Christians who think they are still the chosen people, give them so much money and support.
Ezekiel 37 does not read like their rejoining, then wait thousands of years for the Blessings.

I claim Israelite descent, from my English/Scottish ancestry. Having done proper research into the origins of the nations and Bible prophecy, it is provable that the ancient Israelites migrated out of the Caucasus region, to Europe and beyond. They are now a huge number, living in prosperity, just as prophesied.

It is just those who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory, who must have two peoples of God; the Jews on earth; the Church in heaven. A lie of the worst kind, that will cause many to lose their faith, when it doesn't happen.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you think the 2 Houses of Judah and Israel have rejoined already, then Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled. But plainly, obviously; it is NOT.
The Jewish people in no way are all of Israel, they represent just 6/12ths, the rest remain scattered among the nations. Soon to be gathered and blessed as Ezekiel 37 prophesies.

Re the 144,000; only the 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin have people alive today who claim that ancestry. Even most of them are doubtful.
So we rely on God, who does know His people, Amos 9:9, to sort us out. He does this, as He stands on Mt Zion; Revelation 14:1-5

There is not such person as a "Jew" in Christ today...
Any of the house of Israel and house of Judah that comes to Christ are "Christian". Some Christian sects still practice OC Judaism so I guess they could be referred to as "Jews"

There is no longer a house of Judah/Jews [which it and their priesthood got decimated in 70AD never to arise again]Judaism is dead and buried............

Rom 3:22
This righteousness is given through faith in[fn] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
Rom 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Col 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

I would think verse 10 is speaking of the whole House of Israel...the 12 Tribes and their offsprings....

New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

Hebrews 8:8 "For faulting to them He is saying 'behold! days are coming is saying LORD, and I shall be consummating upon the House of Israel[Northern Kingdom] and upon the house of Judah[Southern Kingdom] a NEW<2537> Covenant'
9 Not according as the Covenant which I make to their fathers in day of taking of Me their hand, to be leading them out of land of Egypt, that not they remain in the Covenant of Me, and I, I un-care of them, is saying LORD.
10 That this the Covenant which I shall be Covenanting to the House of Israel after those days, is saying LOrd.
Giving laws of Me into the minds of them, and upon hearts of them I shall be engraving them. And I shall to them into God and they shall be to Me into a People.
=========================
Comparison of the number of time "King of Israel" and "King of the Jews" in the NT

This show Yahweh/Jesus is already in their midst:

Zep 3:15
The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is in within of you; never again will you fear any harm.

Mat 27:42
“He saved others,” they said, “but he can't save himself! He's the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

Jhn 1:49
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Jhn 12:13
They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna![fn]” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”[fn] “Blessed is the king of Israel!”
=================================
King of the Jews in NT
Mat 2:2
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
Mat 27:11
Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied.
Mat 27:29
and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said.
Mat 27:37
Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews.
Mar 15:2
“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “You have said so,” Jesus replied.
Mar 15:9
“Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate,
Mar 15:12
“What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.
Mar 15:18
And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!”
Mar 15:26
The written notice of the charge against him read: the king of the jews.
Luk 23:3
So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied.
Luk 23:37
and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”
Luk 23:38
There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.
Jhn 18:33
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
Jhn 18:39
But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews'?”
Jhn 19:3
and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.
Jhn 19:19
Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews.
Jhn 19:21
The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.”

 

[Contenders Edge]

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

.

2 Cor. 11:2 is in reference to a singular entity made up of a collective of individuals whereas Rev. 14:4 is in the plural

Romans 16:5: Meaning the first convert to Christ out of Achaia. Arguably, the Apostles could be called the first fruits unto Christ out of Israel. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

So, of whom are the 144,000 the first fruits unto Christ?

Not of Israel or of any other people or place for there were others who came unto Christ before them.

There can be only one explanation: They are the first fruits of a time in our future during which the Church is no longer present upon the earth but has been removed from there by Christ before that dark time to come upon the earth known as the tribulation.

That in and of itself opens us up to debate on topics that take us beyond the scope of this thread and are best debated on another thread.

 

[Contenders Edge]

The Jews know very well that the other ten tribes have not rejoined as yet. They don't advertise that fact, because the deceived Christians who think they are still the chosen people, give them so much money and support.
Ezekiel 37 does not read like their rejoining, then wait thousands of years for the Blessings.

I claim Israelite descent, from my English/Scottish ancestry. Having done proper research into the origins of the nations and Bible prophecy, it is provable that the ancient Israelites migrated out of the Caucasus region, to Europe and beyond. They are now a huge number, living in prosperity, just as prophesied.

It is just those who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory, who must have two peoples of God; the Jews on earth; the Church in heaven. A lie of the worst kind, that will cause many to lose their faith, when it doesn't happen.

Ezekiel makes their reunification very clear. The blessings pertaining to them will be received in full when they embrace Messiah. While there is no denying that the Israelites have been scattered throughout the nations, to prove that the Anglo-Saxon nations are of Israelite descent is a completely different matter.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

2 Cor. 11:2 is in reference to a singular entity made up of a collective of individuals whereas Rev. 14:4 is in the plural

So, of whom are the 144,000 the first fruits unto Christ?
Not of Israel or of any other people or place for there were others who came unto Christ before them.
That in and of itself opens us up to debate on topics that take us beyond the scope of this thread and are best debated on another thread.

There are a plethora of threads on CF concerning that topic.......Just use Google..........

Topic located on CF:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the...L6wKHWUnDw0QrQIoBDAAegQIBBAN&biw=1366&bih=626

Topic on other sites:

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwibjobavKTkAhUQY6wKHdcQDjgQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

Morning Musings: Revelation 7 and 14 clearly anticipated the salvation of the remnant of Old Covenant Israel.
The thing is that Paul had some powerful things to say about that which demand a first century fulfillment! This is really cool stuff, so take a look and pass it on!

Comments


jcismyall 5 months ago

This makes perfect sense! What doesn’t make sense is why do people think the word “Jew” means the same as it did then in the Bible. Today ANYONE who converts or follows the man made rabbinical religion of Judaism is called Jewish hence Chinese Jews, Ethiopian Jews etc. Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3). The 1905 Jewish Encyclopedia Vol. XI p 533, stated that ‘probably 95% of the persons included in these estimates of Jewish populations are Ashkenazim‘. The Encyclopedia Judaica (1972) records, “Khazars, a national group of general Turkic type, indendendent and sovereign in Eastern Europe between the seventh and tenth centuries C.E. During part of this time the leading Khazaras professed Judaism…

In spite of the negligible information of an archaeologica nature, the presence of Jewish groups and the impact of Jewish ideas in Eastern Europe are considerable during the Middle Ages. Groups have been mentioned as migrating to Central Europe from the East often have been referred to as Khazars, thus making it impossible to overlook the possibility that they originated from with the former Khazar Empire.” So Jews today are not related to that remnant the Bible was speaking of & this is from Judaism’s own admission.
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History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him." The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."

Today most people think of Jews as the people of Israel, but that is not correct. An Israelite was one who had descended from Jacob. In Jesus' time individual Jews may or may not have descended from Jacob, but they all recognized Pharisaism and not the Law of Moses. A Jew is properly a Judean.

The point is that one who is called a "Jew" in the Bible is not necessarily a chosen man of God, a follower of Moses and the prophets, a member of the tribe of Judah, an Israelite, or even a Semite, but one who is a resident of Judea. A Judean. But a well-organized and well-financed international "pressure group" created a so-called "secondary meaning" for the new word "Jew" which is not the understanding intended by the Scripture of truth. Those who call themselves Jews today falsely imply they are somehow descendants of the tribes of Israel and chosen of God. Yet few of them are Jews as they are not "Judeans," or residents of Judea.

So if modern day so-called Jews are not the Jews of the Bible, who are they? When asked, "Who is Israel? - Who is a Jew?" the Israeli Government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) unhesitatingly answered:

"The term Israelite is purely Biblical. An Israeli is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion. A Jew is a person anywhere in the world born to a Jewish mother, or converted to Judaism, who is thus identified as a member of the Jewish people and religion" (Information Division, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem; February, 1998).

The Jewish Almanac concurs: "Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew." Or to call a contemporary Jew [an] "Israelite," or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews were not have been Jews at all, and contemporary Palestinians, by their own definition of the term "Palestinian," have to include Jews among their own people" (The Jewish Almanac, October, 1980, page 3, Bantam Books, Inc).

The Online Etymology Dictionary describes the etymology of the word 'jew,' but perhaps because its editor is not a Bible student it exhibits an ignorance of the meaning of the original Greek word Ioudaios derived from the Aramaic jehudhai which did not refer to members of the tribe of Judah but to Judeans, the residents of the Babylonian province of Judea. The spelling of our present-day English word Jew is a transliteration of an abbreviation or slang word coined by their Babylonian conquerors for Judeans without reference to the race or religion of the captives. The editor has inadvertently discriminated the Semitic tribesmen of the sons of Israel from the diverse mass of races and religions then resident in Judea by applying the incorrect colloquial idiom, not having recognized the true and Biblical meaning of the original words.


The Introduction of the Word "Jew" into God's Holy Bible

In 1604, James VI, King of Scotland from his youth, became King James I of England, the first ruler of Britain and Ireland. Because of the growing animosity of James toward the Puritans, a leading Puritan spokesman, Dr. John Reynolds, proposed that a new English Bible be issued in honour of the new King. ............

 

[Contenders Edge]

What Scripture says that Messiah's blessings are dependent upon whom one aligns oneself with?

Ultimately who will people align themselves with in the end? There are only two options.

 

[jgr]

Ultimately who will people align themselves with in the end? There are only two options.

I thought that any Gentiles who aligned themselves with any ethnic Jews would receive Messiah's blessings.

You've earlier referred to good and bad Israelites. What distinguishes each of them, and what is the ultimate fate of each of them?