A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Kylie]

I agree that there is in-congruence between mind and body. What I disagree with is how it is treated. Gender ideology has dictated what can and cannot be used in treatment. Now young people who question their gender are automatically assumed to be gender dysphoric and supported to changing their bodies to the opposite sex. Intervention is happening at younger ages and it reminds me of the way young people are being given medications for all these new aged problems that have been created like ADHD so readily and easy.

Hormone blockers at a young age can do great damage as hormones affect the whole body and not just sex. There is evidence that the brain is affected as well as associated with decreased bone development, cancer and infertility. Sex change operations are permanent and there is evidence many young people grow out of their gender dysphoria and accept they origin sex at birth. So it is a high price to pay for an ideology that is based on flimsy and unverified evidence.

Evidence also shows that sex change operations do not work anyway in the long run. A person who knows that their body does not match their real sense of self and gender, also knows that their body is artificially altered and not real and this can make matters worse. For the most part plastic surgery is the same. It may bring some short-term happiness but in the long run people know it is artificial and the results usually end up making people look and feel worse. It is a false hope and that is the problem as false hope when discovered will compound any feelings of inadequacy.

Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment
Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment

Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.

Your first article seems to be talking purely about very young children - hardly a good sample to draw conclusions about ALL trans people from.

Your second article seems to be arguing that since it can't make people biologically the other sex (if can't give a trans man functioning testes, it can't give a trans woman a functioning uterus and ovaries), it's of no use whatsoever.

I find both arguments very weak.

 

[Kylie]

Is your testosterone level closer to 500? or 25. Is your Chromosomes XX or XY? there is more to your biology than your sex organs.

My levels of testosterone and estrogen are not what give me my sense of womanness. And there are many people out there who do not have XX or XY chromosomes.

My views about you are important to me, and your views about you are important to yourself. But you don't have the right to demand I view you the way you view yourself; that's for me to decide (and visa versa).

So you think you have the right to ignore what I say about myself just because you think I'm wrong?

Let me ask you a question: Who between us is the expert on me? Is it you? Or is it me?

But perhaps you can explain something to me then. What does it mean to identify as a particular sex? I'm probably what you would call a "Cis" male; meaning I identify as a man, and my biology is male. But the reality is; I identify as myself! I have no idea what it means to identify as a man. If I felt the exact same way I do now but I had female sex organs, I would say I'm a woman because I would assume what I feel other women feel as well. So when someone says they identify as something other than their biology, what does that mean? Help me understand this.

You claim to identify as a man, so you must have some idea of what it's like.

But if the concept means nothing to you, why don't you spend a week identifying as a woman?

 

[Kylie]

Lifesite did not do the study, Brown University did it. So why is Brown University's study a strike against?

Because Lifesite is hardly going to give a balanced view. They have an agenda and they will cherry pick. They will take a study that they can use, ignore anything that contradicts it, and they will also likely misrepresent what the study actually says in order to promote the agenda they want to promote.

Why does that matter? There is a big difference between being non-heterosexual and transgender.

Of course, a straight trans woman will be attracted to males, but before she comes out, while she is still presenting as a man, she will appear to be a gay male, won't she?

Actually I think it kinda does. Kids are very impressionable at that age, the desire to fit in, or be a part of a group is very important to them.

Then should I be worried? My daughter has a gay friend at school, and she's shown no signs at all of lesbianism! Why isn't she succumbing to peer pressure like you said she would? Is there something wrong with her?!?!?!?!?!?!

That was the actual source.

No, Lifesite was NOT the actual source.

 

[Nithavela]

Didn't really follow the thread, but did you guys hash out a simple fix already?

 

[BrotherJJ]

OP question: A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

One word: MIRROR!

 

[Moral Orel]

really? Prove it. Prove it is never reasonable for a person to be angry or happy.

Nope. You're moving the goal posts. You said that sometimes there is a "correct" emotion to have, not "reasonable". If there is a correct emotion to have, then every other emotion, including being emotionless, is the incorrect response. So you're saying that all those Buddhists that have found inner peace and don't get angry "feel incorrectly". Do you see how silly it is to say feelings are incorrect?

Merriam-webster dictionary seems to agree with me.
Definition of DELUSION

Let's see... Here's you:
"I say delusion because they act as if their biological sex is different than what they are."
Bolding added by me for emphasis.

Here's the dictionary:
"Something that is falsely or delusively believed"
Bolding added by me for emphasis.

Nope. The dictionary doesn't agree with you. They don't believe that their biology is different from what it is, so it isn't a delusion. They don't define the word "gender" by referring to biology, and since the meaning we assign to words is arbitrary, they aren't incorrect. You've got your opinion on how we should define "gender", they have theirs, neither of you is "correct". Correct and incorrect don't apply to opinions.

I don't see it as a delusion

Yes you do. I told you that I don't "feel" like a "Nicholas". That's how you've defined delusion, and you'll cater to it.

Merriam-webster dictionary agrees with my definition of Father. Do you have a definition that disagree with me and agree with you? If not, then your problem is with the dictionary; not me.
Definition of FATHER

Let's see... Here's you:
"A biological male parent"
Bolding added by me for emphasis.

And here's the dictionary:
"A male parent"
There's nothing for me to bold this time because it doesn't mention "biological" as yours does, so again, nope. The dictionary doesn't agree with you.

But here's the thing. When we apply your logic about gender to parenthood, folks can see how absurd it is. I know my genetics don't match my kid's, so I don't hold any false beliefs about that. But you'll still call me delusional because I "act" like I am his father, which isn't how the word "delusional" works. How ridiculous it would be to insist on referring to me as "step-father" instead of just calling me "father". I'm satisfied with how this conversation has turned out. I know you think you won, and that's fine. But I've grown tired of it, and I think this analogy is the perfect way to end things and show how silly your "biology-only" opinion is.

Okay. The reason I pointed this out is because that is a major part of my disagreement with this issue. However if you are talking only about that percentage of them who ask respectfully that I refer to them according to their Gender, and will take it no further than that; I will respectfully respond that I don't address gender, only biology; end of conversation. I see no problem with that.

Right, you'll tell them that you'll continue to offend them. You don't need to keep repeating it. We know your position. Maybe I should go tell some Jesus jokes to some Christians, and I'll just insist that "It's just a joke" to them. And if they feel offended after I explained that I'm not being offensive, then their feelings are incorrect. What rubbish.

 

[Ken-1122]

My levels of testosterone and estrogen are not what give me my sense of womanness.

What does it mean to have a sense of "womanness"? And are you saying if a person doesn't have this sense, they are not a woman?

And there are many people out there who do not have XX or XY chromosomes.

You talking about Hermaphrodites? Yeah that is rare; there are always exceptions.

So you think you have the right to ignore what I say about myself just because you think I'm wrong?

Let me ask you a question: Who between us is the expert on me? Is it you? Or is it me?

Hitler thought he was a great leader; most people consider him a mad and evil man. Just because somebody see themselves one way doesn't mean everybody is going to agree

You claim to identify as a man, so you must have some idea of what it's like.

I said I identify as myself; I have no idea what it means to identify as a man.

But if the concept means nothing to you, why don't you spend a week identifying as a woman?

What does it mean to identify as a woman? And would you mind answering the question I asked you?

 

[Ken-1122]

Because Lifesite is hardly going to give a balanced view. They have an agenda and they will cherry pick. They will take a study that they can use, ignore anything that contradicts it, and they will also likely misrepresent what the study actually says in order to promote the agenda they want to promote.

So you are accusing Lifesite of misrepresenting the actual study? How did they do this?

Then should I be worried? My daughter has a gay friend at school, and she's shown no signs at all of lesbianism! Why isn't she succumbing to peer pressure like you said she would? Is there something wrong with her?!?!?!?!?!?!

The study doesn't imply this happens every time, just that it happens

No, Lifesite was NOT the actual source.

Brown University is the actual source. Lifesite just reported with this particular article. Now if you have doubts that Brown University actually did this study, explain why

 

[Ken-1122]

Nope. You're moving the goal posts. You said that sometimes there is a "correct" emotion to have, not "reasonable".

You said such emotions are "irrational" Irrational is defined as "unreasonable". That is why I used the term unreasonable.

Let's see... Here's you:
"I say delusion because they act as if their biological sex is different than what they are."
Bolding added by me for emphasis.

Here's the dictionary:
"Something that is falsely or delusively believed"
Bolding added by me for emphasis.

Nope. The dictionary doesn't agree with you. They don't believe that their biology is different from what it is, so it isn't a delusion. They don't define the word "gender" by referring to biology, and since the meaning we assign to words is arbitrary, they aren't incorrect. You've got your opinion on how we should define "gender", they have theirs, neither of you is "correct". Correct and incorrect don't apply to opinions.

Let me ask you the same question I asked the prior person.
What does it mean to identify as a man, or a woman? Is it about assuming there are specific characteristics that apply only to women (for example) that do not apply to men? And because they don't fit into the box they have subjectively determined all women are supposed to fit into, they conclude they aren't female? What does it mean to identify as a man or a woman?

 

[Kylie]

What does it mean to have a sense of "womanness"? And are you saying if a person doesn't have this sense, they are not a woman?

Yeah, what it is about me that tells me that I'm a woman. Protip: it's not what's between my legs.

You talking about Hermaphrodites? Yeah that is rare; there are always exceptions.

Yes, because XX, XY and hermaphrodites are the only possible options, of course. *rolls eyes* Haven't you done even the slightest bit of research on this topic?

Hitler thought he was a great leader; most people consider him a mad and evil man. Just because somebody see themselves one way doesn't mean everybody is going to agree

Godwin's Law.

And some would say that by invoking Hitler, you've lost the argument. Internet rules and laws: the top 10, from Godwin to Poe

I said I identify as myself; I have no idea what it means to identify as a man.

Then that's your issue. But there are plenty of people out there who have a strong sense of masculinity, just as I have a strong sense of femininity.

What does it mean to identify as a woman?

To have a sense of identity as a woman. To feel that being a woman is right.

And would you mind answering the question I asked you?

You've asked me many questions, could you be more specific?

 

[Kylie]

So you are accusing Lifesite of misrepresenting the actual study? How did they do this?

Well, for a start, the headline makes it seem like trans people only transition because they are pressured to, not because they really want to. It also suggests that trans people are just suffering from mental health issues.

The article then makes the unjustified conclusion that people say they are trans BECAUSE of these alleged mental health issues or non-straight orientations. The article also tries to suggest that being trans is similar to things like bullying and drug use by claiming they are all the result of peer pressure.

The study doesn't imply this happens every time, just that it happens

But it doesn't say that it's a small percentage of the time, and by making such a big deal about it, the article suggests that it is a much greater influence.

Brown University is the actual source. Lifesite just reported with this particular article. Now if you have doubts that Brown University actually did this study, explain why

But you didn't share the study from Brown university. You shared a right wing, anti-trans website's article about the study.

 

[stevevw]

You actually got any evidence for any of this?

yes the evidence comes from your own articles. For example the article you linked below questions the biological basis for gender and the developmental mismatch idea between biological sex and the brain

It’s unlikely that gender identity has such a straightforward biological explanation, however, and some studies have identified features of the transgender brain that appear closer to the natal sex, casting doubt on the developmental mismatch hypothesis.

In a 2015 study from the Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, a comparison of the distribution of gray matter in 55 female-to-male and 38 male-to-female transgender adolescents with cisgender controls in the same age group found broad similarities in the hypothalami and the cerebellums of the transgender subjects and cisgender participants of the same natal sex.7

So despite the headlines stating transgender peoples brains are similar to the gender they identify with there is mixed results and the findings are inconclusive at the moment. if it were true then we should see a consistent result for all transgender people.

As for these changes happening before birth this is also not so straight forward and your paper actually says that the influence of gender in the brain is more likely a combination of biological, psychological and social influences.

Even if the prenatal environment can nudge the body and the brain in different directions, that’s probably only one facet of the forces underlying gender dysphoria, says Kreukels. The full picture, she explains, is likely to be “a combination between biological, psychological, and social factors—because we really think it’s a complex interplay between all these factors, and thus far research has not given a solution for that.”

To further support that it is not as straight forward as gender being formed biologically your article also mentions that there is a section in the transgender brain relating to self image that has weaker connections. So it may be something unrelated to gender that causes gender dysphoria.

Ivanka Savic, a neuroscientist at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, also doubts the explanatory power of the developmental mismatch hypothesis. “It is not that simple that transgenderism is due to this disparity between the sex of the brain and the sex of the body,” Savic and a colleague found that two brain regions, the thalamus and putamen, were smaller in transgender women than in cisgender controls, but overall gray matter volume was greater.11 These brain regions had been shown in previous studies to “mediate perception of the body

In follow-up work, Savic’s group began exploring the brain’s neural networks, as revealed by fMRI, and found that “the connections between the networks mediating self and the networks mediating own body—my body—were weaker in transgender people,”

If this is the case then the issue is not so much gender identity or relating to the opposite gender but more about a general breakdown in the wiring that helps people relate and identify to their own body which is more about self image. Rejecting ones gender may be part of rejecting ones body image.

Another expert also questions the the idea of gender having a biological basis in the brain and are present from birth from your article. Because the brain is plastic life experiences can also shape it and therefore cause changes that may make transgender brains similar to the gender they identify with. Like I mentioned this makes sense as other studies have shown how the brain can be influenced by environmental factors such as abuse and aggression.

Sven Müller, a psychologist at Ghent University in Belgium; and reported correlations may not reflect causal relationships. “I think the judgment is still out” about the extent to which gender incongruence has a biological cause, he says. “The brain is extremely plastic in adulthood,” he notes, so differences identified between transgender and cisgender people may or may not have been present from birth.

Are the Brains of Transgender People Different from Those of Cisgender People?

But even if we were to say that there is a biological basis for gender and that the developmental mismatch hypothesis is correct where a persons gender identity separates and takes a different path to their biological sex this only supports the idea that there is a problem, a misalignment that needs to be realigned. It does not mean that being transgender is a normal part of human development and should be encouraged.

The article states it is a mismatch and something has gone wrong with the persons sense of gender not aligning with their physical sex. But what gender ideology want to do is change the entire body to match the brain when it is the brain connections that have mismatched and not the body.

And even if there is a biological basis for gender that can happen before birth it is still a misalignment which is most likely caused by something that has affected the normal trajectory for aligning gender identity with the body. This is more likely to be an epigenetic influences from perhaps the mothers or even grandmothers life. Epigenetic influences are well know in affecting the brain of the feotus across a range of issues and this would be more related to an environmental and social influence on gender.

careful consideration of the field of epigenetics leads us to conclude that gender must also leave an epigenetic imprint on the brain. Indeed, it would be strange if this were not the case, because all environmental influences of any import can epigenetically change the brain. In the following pages, we explain why there is now sufficient evidence to suggest that an epigenetic imprint for gender is a logical conclusion.
Does Gender Leave an Epigenetic Imprint on the Brain?

This makes some sense for me as we are seeing a massive increase in gender fluidity ideology which some experts are saying is beyond any biological cause and possibly socially influenced. Social media is said to be a factor in influencing young people to question their gender and become immersed in the ideology.
Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens?

I don't care how a person becomes transgender and I agree that we need to take the morality and stigma out of this as many are suffering mental health issues. But I do worry about how treatment is given and we need to be open to all possible options to find a solution. But unfortunately things may be going to the other extreme. Where in the past we used conversion therapy and psychology to question if a person was really transgender only now we are using hormones and sex change and encouraging people to become transgender without any other option.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yeah, what it is about me that tells me that I'm a woman. Protip: it's not what's between my legs.

Can you tell me what it IS rather than what it ISN'T

Yes, because XX, XY and hermaphrodites are the only possible options, of course. *rolls eyes* Haven't you done even the slightest bit of research on this topic?

Other than Hermaphrodite/Intersexual, what else are you referring to?

Godwin's Law.

And some would say that by invoking Hitler, you've lost the argument.

Godwin does not make up the rules. If there is anything you disagree with, tell me in your own words.

Then that's your issue. But there are plenty of people out there who have a strong sense of masculinity, just as I have a strong sense of femininity.

Does having a strong sense of masculinity make you a man? Does having a strong sense of femininity make you a woman?

To have a sense of identity as a woman. To feel that being a woman is right.

How would you feeling be different if your feeling of being a woman were wrong?

You've asked me many questions, could you be more specific?

This is the question I asked you:

What does it mean to identify as a particular sex? I'm probably what you would call a "Cis" male; meaning I identify as a man, and my biology is male. But the reality is; I identify as myself! I have no idea what it means to identify as a man. If I felt the exact same way I do now but I had female sex organs, I would say I'm a woman because I would assume what I feel other women feel as well. So when someone says they identify as something other than their biology, what does that mean? Help me understand this.

Care to explain this to me?

 

[stevevw]

Your first article seems to be talking purely about very young children - hardly a good sample to draw conclusions about ALL trans people from.

Your second article seems to be arguing that since it can't make people biologically the other sex (if can't give a trans man functioning testes, it can't give a trans woman a functioning uterus and ovaries), it's of no use whatsoever.

I find both arguments very weak.

The first article is about puberty blockers and the harm caused and not about transgender people overall. Only young people can experience puberty so naturally it is about young people. Childhood is the time transgender tendencies are best assessed and puberty is said to be the perfect age changing a persons gender. It is also a good time for assessing the harm hormone therapy has as the body is already going through big changes and not just with sex. So there is a higher risk that hormone therapy will also affect other areas of development.

The second article does make a good argument because the research has shown that a sex change can bring some short term happiness but in the long run many are unhappy. I would say that much of this is because a sex change cannot really make a person completely the opposite sex. It is only superficial and when that superficiality is realized that is when it hots the hardest. Obviously a person especially if they are young would like to be able to be fully the opposite sex including being able to have functioning sex and reproductive systems. But this cannot be and that in itself even for non-trans people can be devastating.

Any person wants to feel authentic and even more so for trans people as this is their main issue with gender. So even though they may be able to have some aspects of the opposite sex to not be able to feel completely the opposite sex would be something that can contribute to mental health and well-being.

 

[Kylie]

Can you tell me what it IS rather than what it ISN'T

It's what's in my head.

Other than Hermaphrodite/Intersexual, what else are you referring to?

There's Turner syndrome, where a person has X0 chromosomes - they literally just have a single X chromosome, no second X, no Y. They tend to be shorter, with broad chests and necks.

There's also Triple X syndrome, where the person has XXX (or more rarely XXXX or even XXXXX). This causes women to be tall and slender, and they can have some abnormalities which can lead to ovarian failure. Triple X syndrome - Wikipedia

There's Klinefelter syndrome, where males get XXY or more rarely XXXY or XY/XXY mosaic. Males with this tend to have feminine shaped bodies, high pitched voices, sterility, and low levels of testosterone.

Men can also have a second Y chromosome, XYY. These men are generally over 6 feet and have very high levels of testosterone.

There's also XX Male syndrome, where a person with XX chromosomes can appear male despite being genetically female. XX male syndrome - Wikipedia

There's XY gonadal dysgenesis, where despite the presence of a Y chromosome, the person is externally female, they tend to identify as female and they are raised as girls. However, the gonads don't develop, and as such the girl will not experience puberty unless they take hormone treatments. XY gonadal dysgenesis - Wikipedia

Does having a strong sense of masculinity make you a man? Does having a strong sense of femininity make you a woman?

I don't know how to be clearer than this.

I identify as a woman because I have a feeling inside me that I am a woman.

How would you feeling be different if your feeling of being a woman were wrong?

If that were the case, I'd be a trans man.

This is the question I asked you:

What does it mean to identify as a particular sex? I'm probably what you would call a "Cis" male; meaning I identify as a man, and my biology is male. But the reality is; I identify as myself! I have no idea what it means to identify as a man. If I felt the exact same way I do now but I had female sex organs, I would say I'm a woman because I would assume what I feel other women feel as well. So when someone says they identify as something other than their biology, what does that mean? Help me understand this.

Care to explain this to me?

I feel like I'm trying to describe colour to a blind man here...

 

[Ken-1122]

It's what's in my head.

Because it's in your head? Perhaps if your sex organs were male, you had less estrogen and a lot more testosterone in your body and you were raised in an environment and culture of being a man, that what is in your head would be different?

There's Turner syndrome, where a person has X0 chromosomes - they literally just have a single X chromosome, no second X, no Y. They tend to be shorter, with broad chests and necks.

There's also Triple X syndrome, where the person has XXX (or more rarely XXXX or even XXXXX). This causes women to be tall and slender, and they can have some abnormalities which can lead to ovarian failure. Triple X syndrome - Wikipedia

There's Klinefelter syndrome, where males get XXY or more rarely XXXY or XY/XXY mosaic. Males with this tend to have feminine shaped bodies, high pitched voices, sterility, and low levels of testosterone.

Men can also have a second Y chromosome, XYY. These men are generally over 6 feet and have very high levels of testosterone.

There's also XX Male syndrome, where a person with XX chromosomes can appear male despite being genetically female. XX male syndrome - Wikipedia

There's XY gonadal dysgenesis, where despite the presence of a Y chromosome, the person is externally female, they tend to identify as female and they are raised as girls. However, the gonads don't develop, and as such the girl will not experience puberty unless they take hormone treatments. XY gonadal dysgenesis - Wikipedia

And how is that different than intersex/Hermaphrodite?
Intersex - Wikipedia

I don't know how to be clearer than this.

I identify as a woman because I have a feeling inside me that I am a woman.

That's now what I asked. Again; does having a strong sense of femininity make you a woman?

If that were the case, I'd be a trans man.

That's not what I asked. Again; how would your feelings be different if feeling like a woman did not feel right? In other words; what do you mean when you say "feel like a woman"? Does such a feeling really exist? Or is it a matter of you feeling like yourself, and because of your biology, you've concluded you are a woman and feeling like you equals feeling like a woman.

I feel like I'm trying to describe colour to a blind man here...

Perhaps there is no such a feeling that only women feel that men do not, and visa versa; and that is why you can't describe what it means to feel like a woman. Ya think?

 

[stevevw]

Just watching a piece on transgender girls competing in track and field from the perspective of cis girls. They feel it is unfair and say even when they are lining up in the race they have no chance competing against some who basically has all the traits of a male. Average male athletes are becoming women champions and taking out female athletes who would have normally qualified for further involvement and ending their chances.

People want to focus of the rights of transgender people but hasn't this legislation just created a new unequal rights situation and discriminated against women. listening to the despair and anguish of these young girls who are having there hopes dashed by being relegated out of female competition seems unfair. Some say this will change women's athletics in the long run where we will have only male and co-ed categories and women competition will be a thing of the past. Some may say that biology has nothing to do with gender yet it is biology that is at the forefront of what is destroying traditional areas for women.

 

[Moral Orel]

Just watching a piece on transgender girls competing in track and field from the perspective of cis girls. They feel it is unfair and say even when they are lining up in the race they have no chance against basically when are males competing against females. Average male athletes are becoming women champions and taking out female athletes who would have normally qualified for further involvement and ending their chances.

People want to focus of the rights of transgender people but hasn't this legislation just created a new unequal rights situation and discriminated against women. listening to the despair and anguish of these young girls who are having there hopes dashed by being relegated out of female competition seems unfair. Some say this will change women's athletics in the long run where we will have only male and co-ed categories and women competition will be a thing of the past. Some may say that biology has nothing to do with gender yet it is biology that is at the forefront of what is destroying traditional areas for women.

You can be against transgenders in sports and also not discount everything else they have to say.

 

[stevevw]

You can be against transgenders in sports and also not discount everything else they have to say.

Yes that is true. But it seems the same ideology that allows transgenders women to compete in women's sports will also apply to other areas that can have a impact on women unfortunately and I am sure more will come up as time goes by. But it is not just about uneven competition. It is and situation where the physical aspects of being a male or female come into play such as women's only gyms and salons.

 

[Moral Orel]

Yes that is true. But it seems the same ideology that allows transgenders women to compete in women's sports will also apply to other areas that can have a impact on women unfortunately and I am sure more will come up as time goes by. But it is not just about uneven competition. It is and situation where the physical aspects of being a male or female come into play such as women's only gyms and salons.

Gyms and salons? How do you mean?