How was the first century Remnant That Paul spoke of NOT the recipients of the Rom 9:27 fulfillment?
Setting aside jgr's very valid point that the Bloodlines origins are MULTI-Ethnic for a moment, Why did the Bloodline need to be preserved once the Christ has come?
What scripture teaches it is to be preserved post-Christ?
And did he not preserve them by keeping 7000 faithful who did not bow the knee to BAAL?
The rest were excommunicated out of the covenant & destroyed, no?
Why are you not complaining that By excommunicating and destroying all but 7000 faithful, He likewise failed to preserve them? Because that is EXACLTY what you are saying about the 1st century Remnant.
When God preserves a remnant of Faithful Israel at ANY TIME, the continuation of Israel is afterward counted in the descendants of THAT REMNANT ALONE.
So Instead of like every other time God preserved Israel through a faithful remnant, You are saying the 1st century believing remnant was NOT true preserved Israel, and instead the Wicked of that time are the ones through whom Israel is preserved and Continued to exist... totally OPPOSITE of every other instance of God preserving Israel THROUGH a remnant. You have it exactly backwards.
You do understand that He did that once already, right??
So, you're saying he needs to do it again? ...and maybe again (and again)?
How many more times does scripture say He needs to do this??
5?
17?
200?
Interestingly, it's actually consistent futurism that fosters antisemitism within the church.
Here are some verses that show this to be true:
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)
This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.
And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)
Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.
Indeed The charge of antisemitism lies squarely at the feet of the Evangelical Futurist Christians who are "supporting" Israel because they adhere to and promote the notion that sometime in our NEAR future (its always near apparently), 2/3 of the Jewish Population MUST BE VIOLENTLY EXTERMINATED in the SOON coming (its always soon) Great Tribulation.
A call for 2/3 of Israeli Jews to be violently wiped off the face of the earth SOON, no matter how cloaked in "love for Israel" its packaged up as, is still ugly antisemitism, and should be vehemently opposed by all people of good will.
In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot 42 months until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).
After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.
How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?
Probably millions.
“How was the first century Remnant That Paul spoke of NOT the recipients of the Rom 9:27 fulfillment?”
Paul was speaking of Israel in terms of the nation in when Messiah returns. The Messiah did not return in the first century.
“Why did the Bloodline need to be preserved once the Christ has come?
What scripture teaches it is to be preserved post-Christ?”
I already gave you the scriptures explaining why the bloodline is destined to be preserved:
Jeremiah 31:35-37, 33:20-26,
Malachi 3:6,
Romans 9:27 and chapter 11.
“And did he not preserve them by keeping 7000 faithful who did not bow the knee to BAAL?
The rest were excommunicated out of the covenant & destroyed, no?
Why are you not complaining that By excommunicating and destroying all but 7000 faithful, He likewise failed to preserve them? Because that is EXACLTY what you are saying about the 1st century Remnant.”
The actions of Elijah caused that remnant to grow and would Jehu whom Elijah anointed to destroy the house of Ahab and all associated therewith have been considered to have been among that 7,000? Jehu was not a godly man himself and neither were his descendants who succeeded him as king for four generations.
“So Instead of like every other time God preserved Israel through a faithful remnant, You are saying the 1st century believing remnant was NOT true preserved Israel, and instead the Wicked of that time are the ones through whom Israel is preserved and Continued to exist... totally OPPOSITE of every other instance of God preserving Israel THROUGH a remnant. You have it
exactly backwards.”
When God promised Jehu to retain his descendants upon the throne of the Northern Kingdom up to the fourth generation, did He not have to bear with the wickedness of that kingdom for a time? And yet He did not leave the Northern Kingdom in that time altogether unpunished and He did not reward their wicked behavior.
If God must bear with the wickedness of man for a time in order to fulfill His promises, would you accuse Him of being inconsistent and backwards?
“You do understand that He did that once already, right??
So, you're saying he needs to do it again? ...and maybe again (and again)?
How many more times does scripture say He needs to do this??
5?
17?
200?”
He has punished the wickedness of Israel more than once. Their relationship with God, as described in the scriptures has been an ongoing cycle of descent into sin and wickedness and after a period of punishment, repentance. But this cycle will end with repentance and a saving faith in Christ. At that time, all that has been promised to them will be fulfilled.
“Interestingly, it's actually consistent futurism that fosters antisemitism within the church.
Here are some verses that show this to be true:
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)
This verse designates Jerusalem as "
Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem
remains the spiritual "
Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled…Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty
race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until
Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.”
Clearly you are void of understanding as it pertains to futurist belief and Revelation chapter 11. Jerusalem at present has not yet become like what the book of Revelation has described it will become during the forthcoming tribulation, but then again, Jerusalem’s moral and spiritual state at that moment in time will be no different than that of the rest of the world. But the moral and spiritual state of Jerusalem will suddenly change when, in short, the people in Jerusalem experience a cataclysm that causes them to turn from emnity towards the Gospel to giving glory to God, (Rev. 11:13) thereby paving the way in their hearts for their Messiah.
Furthermore, though Paul said that the Jews were counted as enemies of the Gospel, (as is the case with anyone else who rejects the Gospel and persecutes those who receive it) he did not say that they hated all of mankind. And what futurist ever said that the Jews were opposed to all men? Any saying such a thing is not adhering to futurist doctrine.
“And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also
remain intact to this very day…”
The same is said of anyone [Jew or Gentile] who rejects the saving grace of our Lord.
“Indeed The charge of antisemitism lies squarely at the feet of the Evangelical Futurist Christians who are "supporting" Israel because they adhere to and promote the notion that sometime in our NEAR future (its always near apparently), 2/3 of the Jewish Population MUST BE VIOLENTLY EXTERMINATED in the SOON coming (its always soon) Great Tribulation.
A call for 2/3 of Israeli Jews to be violently wiped off the face of the earth SOON, no matter how cloaked in "love for Israel" its packaged up as, is still ugly antisemitism, and should be vehemently opposed by all people of good will.”
Anyone with an ounce of wisdom will know that upon reading that particular passage of scripture that
it is a foretelling, and not a call for two thirds of the Jewish people to perish. (Zech. 13:8) This is not something that futurists desire to happen but yet believe to be an inevitability. If the scripture did not teach such a thing to befall the nation of Israel, then neither would the futurist.
It is this third part who survives that will be the remnant which the Apostle Paul says will be saved. (Rom. 9:27)
“In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "
given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot 42 months until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "
days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came
to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they
paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt
to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).”
According to Bishop James Ussher’s Annals Of The World, citing Flavious Josephus’s “Jewish War”, the Romans did not set their sights on Jerusalem until 69 A.D. and did not take it until 70 A.D. That is less time than 42 months. And even before then, the Romans already had jurisdiction over Jerusalem.
“How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?
Probably millions.”
It was a Preterist minded Vatican that persecuted Jews throughout the middle ages to such an extent that they had to practice their faith and traditions in secret. Hundreds, if not thousands Jews, were killed in their own land by Vatican sponsored Crusaders.
It was a Preterist minded Martin Luther who hated the Jews with a passion, and like the Vatican, persecuted them as well.
It was a Preterist minded Vatican who, along with Preterist minded Protestants in the late nineteenth century, resisted and advised against re-establishing the Jews in their homeland of Israel. Futurist minded Christians on the other hand supported and rallied for the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in their homeland.
It was a Preterist minded KKK that persecuted Jews here in America when their influence was at its greatest height.
It was a Preterist minded Vatican who had aligned themselves with Adolf Hitler who killed six million Jews.
It has been Preterist minded Christians who would see the land of Israel divided up between the Jews and the so-called Palestinians; a peace plan God condemns and will not bless. (Lev. 25:23, Deut. 19:14, Jo. 3:2)
It has been Preterist minded sects that have boycotted Israel.
That does not sound like a life-saving doctrine to me, but a doctrine that has been used to justify a hatred among some within the Church that should not be and has caused a boasting against the Jewish people that Paul warned against (Rom. 11:18-22)
Any futurist who harbors hatred of Israel and the Jewish people is not acting consistently with futurist thought. Again, you have no proper understanding of futurist thought.
