Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[parousia70]

Several. And here is just a few: Jeremiah 31:35-37, 33:20-26, Malachi 3:6, Romans 9:27 and chapter 11.

Which of those scriptures do you claim teaches that there is a saved remnant that exists outside the Church today?

 

[claninja]

There is nothing ignorant or fallible in the logic of not declaring cancelled out that the New Covenant has not called cancelled out.

An argument that claims something is true because no evidence can show otherwise is known as fallacy in informal logic. To claim the land restoration is true because no evidence in the NT shows otherwise is an illogical fallacy, especially considering the NT states the old covenant was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and taken away (Hebrews 10:9).

I’ve already provided a basis for my position (Rom. 9:4-5, 8, 27, and chapter 11) which you admit you have already rejected,

None of these verses mention land restoration.

Paul could not have pointed to any other scriptures to build his case for the either the Gospel or his hope that one day all of Israel would receive their Messiah. (Rom. 11:27) The Old Testament scriptures were all they had.

The only land restoration required was that of Israel returning from Babylonian captivity for the coming of the messiah in the flesh. Israel returned from Babylonian captivity after 70 years under the old covenant.

And now, it is applied to the whether or not they receive their Messiah.

Please support your argument with NT scripture that explicitly states the earthly blessings of the old covenant are poured out on the nation of Israel if they receive the messiah.

Again, you are declaring cancelled what the New Covenant has not declared cancelled and furthermore.

The scriptures clearly state the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away. I merely re stating what scripture states

Hebrews 8;13 speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second

You, on the other hand, continue to state parts of the old covenant are still in effect, which is opposite of what scripture states.

The earthly promises that are given to the Jews are not upon their repentance are not “worse promises” but different promises incorporated with their heavenly promises which they receive when they receive Christ. If they are as eternal as their heavenly promises (and they are) then they are not worse promises.

Better than what? What are the promises of the new covenant better than in relation to the context of the new covenant being more excellent that the old?

Hebrews 8:6 Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises.

The barn in that parable has to do with the world at large and not Israel.

So you believe the barn is earth and not heaven, correct?

It is not presently a literal gathering. It is a gathering in the sense that those of us who have receive Christ are spiritually of likemind yet we still remain dispersed throughout all the world. This gathering will manifest itself as a literal gathering when our Lord returns to gather the Church to Himself, but that is a different matter.

We are dispersed throughout the world because the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. It began small in Jerusalem and grew into a large plant, hence the body of Christ is found all over the world today.

Which will be accomplished in their homeland. Already is taking place.

So you believe the parable of the sower is about modern day Israel? I would disagree. Through Jeremiah, God prophesied that he would sow Israel among the nations, not to destroy them, but to grow them. Jesus draw upon this in the parable of the sower, it is Christ who sows the good seed.

The parable of the good man sowing seed, to sum it up, is about the spreading of the Gospel which goes out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The preaching of the Gospel has generally been represented by the sowing of seeds. The wheat that grows up are those who have received the Gospel but the weeds represent those who have given themselves over to Satan. But before God can destroy the weeds, the wheat has to be removed first so that it is not destroyed alongside the weeds. It is all explained in that parable.

Who did God use to bring the gospel to the nations? Israel. And when the gentiles became grafted into Israel, it was Jew and Gentile alike (one new man) being sown to bring the gospel to the nations.

 

[claninja]

That being said, you cannot prove from the New Testament that eventual “land restoration” for Israel has been made obsolete any more than I can prove that has not been made obsolete.

If the old covenant has been taken away, then so have the promises. The NT proves the old covenant was taken away (hebrwes 8:13, Hebrews 10:9).

In order to establish what the writer of Hebrews had in mind, we have to take a look at the passages that proceeded and followed after the ones you cited and there is no mention of “land restoration” being among the things done away with. That isn’t even insinuated.

There is no mention of a lot of specifics of the old covenant following or proceeding the verses that mention the old covenant being made obsolete and taken away. So I'm not sure how that is a valid argument.



We should avoid teaching things not mentioned by Jesus or the apostles. While the NT teaches that the old covenant has been made obsolete and taken away, it no where mentions land restoration.

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer

1 timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches another doctrine and disagrees with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and with godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing.

Now the blessings promised to Israel are tied to their acceptance of the New Covenant in Christ.

The blessings promised to Israel under the old covenant are tied to their acceptance of the new covenant in Christ? Where does the NT teach that?

The Old Covenant was not a saving Covenant to begin with. Its purpose was to reveal man’s need for a Savior. It was never intended to be permanent because sin prevent man from receiving eternal life by it.

Absolutely agree. I would add, it was only a shadow pointing to Christ and not the reality (hebrews 10:1).

Haven’t you been maintaining that the earthly blessings have been made obsolete by the New Covenant?

Correct.

No one can follow all the laws of Moses any way.

Absolutely agree, with the exception of Christ.

Not if you compare the events of the Hasmonean dynasty with the events foretold in Ezekiel 37.

Neither the Hasmonean dynasty nor the events of 1948 fit with Ezekiel 37, so I'm not following you.

This is where we look to Ezekiel 37. Notice that the restoration of the nation takes place in a series of stages:



1. In Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones, the scattered bones are put back together and flesh and blood is restored to them, but the breath of life is not in them. It is believed that this implies a physical restoration. (This would be consistent with the re-establishment of the nation in 1948)

2. The breath of life enters into the bodies and they live. It is believed that this implies a spiritual restoration. (This has not yet manifested itself within the nation as a whole, but that is destined to change)

No NT passage teaches that Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled with Israel becoming a new nation in the future of the 1st century.

Ezekiel 37 was written while Israel was in exile, thus the immediate understanding should be return from Babylonian exile, for this the type under the old covenant shadow.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘O My people, I will open your graves and bring you up from them, and I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

Ezekiel also prophesies God would put in Spirit into those of Israel so that they would live and he would settle them in their own land.

Ezekiel 37:14 I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.’”

As Paul states, all the promises of God are yes in Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.

Thus, according the NT, it is through Christ that the Spirit was sent and poured out in Israel

John 15:26 But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me

Acts 2:4,16-17 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

It is through Christ that the dead are made alive
Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses

Where was Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and ascension? in the land of Israel, where they had settled following the Babylonian exile.

Where was the spirit poured out? in the land of Israel at Pentecost.

that Israel is once again a re-established nation; no longer divided into two houses as they were before,

Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the 2 houses becoming one under one head, as being fulfilled in the 1st century with the inclusion of the Jews and gentiles in vessels of mercy.

Romans 9:23-26 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Where in that passage does it state that restoration upon repentance would be a one-time only fulfillment?

It only mentions one land restoration followed by a circumcision of their hearts.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Circumcision of the heart occurs at the receiving of the spirit. The spirit was poured on Pentecost, which was after Israel's return from Babylonian exile.

Romans 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

I've read Deuteronomy 30:1-6 multiple times now and do not see multiple land restorations followed leading up to circumcised hearts.

I hold to the Trinitarian doctrine as well. Therefore, that is not the issue at hand.

So then you agree that God is Spirit, and God now dwells with his temple and walks among us in spirit?

 

[claninja]

I do not see Him ruling and reigning over the kings of the earth and they, with perhaps a few exceptions, do not act like His loyal subjects.

Revelation states Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Paul reveals Jesus is reigning (must reign is present tense).
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Does a US citizen stating "Donald trump is no my president" make Donald trump no their president? No, and neither do unloyal subjects not make Christ king of the world as reigns while putting his enemies under his feet.

Did the Gospel spread throughout of all of Africa in Paul’s day? Did his generation see it preached throughout all of Central Asia and the far east? Did any of the Apostles or Christ’s disciples of that first generation travel to Australia or the Americas to preach the Gospel? Did all of Europe hear the preaching of the Gospel from that first generation? Those were all inhabited lands in that generation as well.

So you believe Paul was wrong?

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 16:25 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith

By man but not by Christ.

What? Why didn't the holy spirit inspire matthew to use kosmos instead of oikoumené then?

Years are made up of days and so years naturally are tied to days and therefore, if we cannot know the day, then we cannot know the year and Jesus never said what year He was returning.

Right he only stated no one knows the day nor hour. As you correctly stated, he never said "year".

But that generation, as far as history is concerned DID pass away, but if necessary, Jesus is able to keep alive even a handful of representatives of that generation to fulfill prophecy as is suggested as a possibility in the Gospel of John. (Jn. 21:22-23) I think we have already discussed this before. But who are we to say that He could not do that if that was needed to fulfill a specific purpose? After all, there is no telling what players on both sides of the age-long war between God and Satan have been kept in obscurity until the time comes for them to be revealed.

The temple was destroyed within 1 generation, as Christ prophesied. Thus the generation did not pass away until all those things occurred.

Suggesting there are 2,000 year old men walking around is speculative and myth.

Do you even understand what is meant by a thief in the night?

Yes, to come unexpectedly.

But, The day of the Lord was not take overtake believers like a thief in the night.
1 thessalonians 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

Who was taken by surprise of the flood, noah and his family or those outside of the ark?

Matthew 24:36-38 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,b but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

That is why God does not count “slowness” or “soon” as we do. As far as Peter was concerned, Christ could have just as easily returned in his lifetime as he could a thousand years afterward. Otherwise, why would Peter say that God “is not slack concerning his promises as some count slackness”? (2 Pet. 3:9)

Incorrect, Peter did not believe Christ would come 1,000 years later, for he also stated the end was at hand.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

The examples from scripture that I have already provided should have been sufficient enough.

Speculative interpretations are enough? I disagree.

The point being made is that there are things that can take place and choices made that can affect at what point in time a prophetic fulfillment takes place and how quickly it takes place. I will admit that was a speculation, but not necessarily an unreasonable one. The examples already provided are enough to justify such speculation.

So you admit this is personal opinion and not scripturally taught then.

And many more since then.

I agree. Good so we agree that there were in fact wars and rumors of wars leading up to the destruction of the temple and beyond.

Jesus said that the sun would be darkened and that the moon would not give its light prior to His return and that the stars would fall from the sky. (Mt. 24:29, Mk. 13:24) What record is there of such things taking place in the first century? These forthcoming events are no mere eclipses or meteor showers which are normal phenomena.

Why would they no be mere shooting starts, lunar eclipses, or solar eclipses?

An examination of OT scripture shows that Jesus appears to be referencing from Isaiah 13

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Which is about the destruction of Babylon by the Medes

Isaiah 13:17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver
and do not delight in gold.

What signs in the heavens took place in the first century so as to strike men’s hearts with fear? (Lk. 21:25)

Per Josephus a sword shape star appeared over Jerusalem for a year

" So it was when a star resembling a sword, stood over the city[Jerusalem] and a comet which continued for a year"

As far as lunar and solar eclipses and falling stars, we'd have to look at any data reporting it in the 1st century.

When have we seen the powers of the heavens shaken? (Mt. 24:29, Mk. 13:25, Lk. 21:26)

I can't see into the heavens now, So I don't know how I could see the power of the heavens shake.

I looked at the source you provided, compared the different charts and when they are put together, an increase in the frequency of earthquakes is clearly shown.

No they don't. (this data only include 5.9 and up magnitude).

In 1990 there were 1744
In 2000 there were 1501
In 2010 there were 2383
In 2017 there were 1566
In 2018 there were 1808

This does not show statistically significant increase in earthquake activity.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Glad to see it. I fully agree.



How can anyone know the difference without knowing the identifying characteristics?

I know of only one People of God.

Scripture knows of only one People of God.

It is those of faith and obedience in and to Him and His Son.

Two identifying characteristics.

No others.

You identified the heavenly people of which we are in Christ, but by what characteristics are the earthly people identified?

 

[Contenders Edge]

Actually, CE; I do agree with much of what you say. but you are quite wrong in thinking that the Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel.
Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. If they were and are now, just the Jewish people, then He failed in His mission. But He did not fail and we Christians are the proof of His success.
Whether by actual descent from the ten Northern tribes or by faith, becoming spiritually a child of God; faithful Christians are all the real Israel of God.
The belief of a general Jewish redemption is simply not found in the Bible, it is a lie to suit the 'rapture' fable.

God is yet to regather His people into all of the holy Land, what has happened so far is a set up to commence all the prophesied end time events.

“Actually, CE; I do agree with much of what you say.”


Why thank you, sir. I appreciate the encouragement.


“but you are quite wrong in thinking that the Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel.”


It is the only Israel in the literal sense. The other is figurative in the sense that Israel became a title bestowed upon the Church due to the fact that we are made Abraham’s spiritual offspring in Christ, but a more detailed analysis of what it means to be called Israel as far as the Church is concerned is best discussed in another thread lest I get penalized for going off-topic.


“Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. If they were and are now, just the Jewish people, then He failed in His mission. But He did not fail and we Christians are the proof of His success.”


While at one time, it was just the people of Judah who were called Jews, (2 Ki. 16:6) all Israelites were eventually called Jews (Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther) and from that day forward, all Israelites of every tribe have been called Jews. No one is calling Jesus a failure in stating this. If you are an Israelite, it does not matter which of the twelve tribes you descend from. You are still called a Jew.

Furthermore, the scriptures never called the northern tribes lost, just scattered. When Jesus called Israel “lost sheep”, He was meaning it in the spiritual sense, not in a literal sense. Everyone born into this world is a lost soul until they come to Christ.


“Whether by actual descent from the ten Northern tribes or by faith, becoming spiritually a child of God; faithful Christians are all the real Israel of God.”


Regardless of your descent, you can only become a spiritual child of God through Christ.

 

[Contenders Edge]

What does the author of the Book of Hebrews say about the land promise?
Is it an "everlasting" land promise?
What happens to this earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13? Is this earth "everlasting"?


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Does God have two separate peoples in the verse below?

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

“What does the author of the Book of Hebrews say about the land promise?

Is it an "everlasting" land promise? What happens to this earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13? Is this earth "everlasting"?



You must believe God to be of limited power if you do not believe it possible for Him to fulfill all that He said that He would, even when this present earth does pass away. What is important is that He will fulfill all that He has said concerning both Israel and the Church. We do not need to know how He will do it. We will find out soon enough when all things come to pass.



“Does God have two separate peoples in the verse below?



Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”


There is Israel and the Church. One day, both will become one.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Which of those scriptures do you claim teaches that there is a saved remnant that exists outside the Church today?

“Ye do err not knowing the scriptures”. (Mt. 22:29)


Did not Paul say that all of Israel would be saved, (Rom. 11:26) even if it be only a remnant? (Rom. 9:27) In the day that happens, will they then not be made a part of the Church?

 

[jgr]

You identified the heavenly people of which we are in Christ, but by what characteristics are the earthly people identified?

That's the question.

By what characteristics does God identify His earthly people, that are different from the characteristics by which He identifies His heavenly people i.e. faith and obedience?

 

[BABerean2]

There is Israel and the Church. One day, both will become one.

That day was the Day of Pentecost, almost 2,000 years ago.

How did Paul address the crowd on that day?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

One that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church" as some attempt to imply to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
Therefore, the Church and Israel cannot be separated as you are attempting to do.

This fact is confirmed by James in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Who was James talking to who were his "brethren" in the "faith", from "the twelve tribes"?

.

 

[BABerean2]

“Ye do err not knowing the scriptures”. (Mt. 22:29)


Did not Paul say that all of Israel would be saved, (Rom. 11:26) even if it be only a remnant? (Rom. 9:27) In the day that happens, will they then not be made a part of the Church?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

.

 

[parousia70]

“Ye do err not knowing the scriptures”. (Mt. 22:29)

Yes, you do.

Did not Paul say that all of Israel would be saved, (Rom. 11:26) even if it be only a remnant? (Rom. 9:27) In the day that happens, will they then not be made a part of the Church?

It's becoming clear to me that you do not understand what God's Faithful Remnant is.
Here is some Biblical History on God's preserved Remnant:

In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4) and the rest were excommunicated out of the Covenant forever. That faithful remnant at that time constituted ALL Israel, and from that time forward ONLY the descendants of those 7000 were Gods Covenanted Israel. The rest, again, were cut off forever.

That's how God preserves His remnant in times of Great Apostasy.

Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham, while a faithful remnant remained ... and through the remnant and the remnant alone, "All Israel" Carried on...

Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that "All Israel" continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); And again as mentioned above, in Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that "All Israel" narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then, as in times past, "All Israel" survived and continued on EXCLUSIVELY through the faithful sons, the Nazarene Sect (The REMNANT), while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people FOREVER.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global.

The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

The REAL "replacement theology" is the one who seeks to REPLACE the Faithful Sons of Abraham with the Wicked ones as the true Heirs, which appears to be what you are promoting.

Such is, sadly, RAMPANT here on CF.

 

[Contenders Edge]

An argument that claims something is true because no evidence can show otherwise is known as fallacy in informal logic. To claim the land restoration is true because no evidence in the NT shows otherwise is an illogical fallacy, especially considering the NT states the old covenant was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and taken away (Hebrews 10:9).



None of these verses mention land restoration.



The only land restoration required was that of Israel returning from Babylonian captivity for the coming of the messiah in the flesh. Israel returned from Babylonian captivity after 70 years under the old covenant.



Please support your argument with NT scripture that explicitly states the earthly blessings of the old covenant are poured out on the nation of Israel if they receive the messiah.



The scriptures clearly state the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away. I merely re stating what scripture states

Hebrews 8;13 speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second

You, on the other hand, continue to state parts of the old covenant are still in effect, which is opposite of what scripture states.



Better than what? What are the promises of the new covenant better than in relation to the context of the new covenant being more excellent that the old?

Hebrews 8:6 Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises.



So you believe the barn is earth and not heaven, correct?



We are dispersed throughout the world because the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. It began small in Jerusalem and grew into a large plant, hence the body of Christ is found all over the world today.



So you believe the parable of the sower is about modern day Israel? I would disagree. Through Jeremiah, God prophesied that he would sow Israel among the nations, not to destroy them, but to grow them. Jesus draw upon this in the parable of the sower, it is Christ who sows the good seed.



Who did God use to bring the gospel to the nations? Israel. And when the gentiles became grafted into Israel, it was Jew and Gentile alike (one new man) being sown to bring the gospel to the nations.

“An argument that claims something is true because no evidence can show otherwise is known as fallacy in informal logic. To claim the land restoration is true because no evidence in the NT shows otherwise is an illogical fallacy, especially considering the NT states the old covenant was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and taken away (Hebrews 10:9).”



In that case, you have been committing that same fallacy in informal logic that you have been claiming that I have made. The Old Covenant was done away with by the New Covenant in and of itself is not the issue but rather what passed away with the Old Covenant and what did not pass away. And in the verses preceding and succeeding the passages that you have cited to defend your case, the writer makes clear what did pass away:


The inferior sacrificial system in which sacrifices that could only cover sins but never take them away had to be offered up continuously because the superior sacrifice of Christ takes away sins once and for all, making no further blood sacrifices necessary. (Heb. 10:10-12)


“None of these verses mention land restoration.”


They imply it nonetheless and have their foundation in the Old Testament scriptures that do pertain to land restoration.


“The only land restoration required was that of Israel returning from Babylonian captivity for the coming of the messiah in the flesh. Israel returned from Babylonian captivity after 70 years under the old covenant.”


There is no evidence from scripture that this was a one-time fulfillment only.


“Please support your argument with NT scripture that explicitly states the earthly blessings of the old covenant are poured out on the nation of Israel if they receive the messiah.”


God never changes (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) and He is faithful in fulfilling His promises. (Heb. 10:23) And if God if faithful in keeping His promises whether it be those that pertain to the nation of Israel or the Church, He is not going to change them or cancel them. That should be enough of a basis to state that land restoration as it pertains to Israel has not been done away with.

Whatever was not fulfilled before the New Covenant is going to be fulfilled under the New Covenant exactly as declared and foretold.


“The scriptures clearly state the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away. I merely re stating what scripture states.”


You are going beyond what scripture has explicitly stated.


“You, on the other hand, continue to state parts of the old covenant are still in effect, which is opposite of what scripture states.”


Is the faithful keep of promises to a people to which they were made keeping the Old Covenant in effect?


“Better than what? What are the promises of the new covenant better than in relation to the context of the new covenant being more excellent that the old?”


The New Covenant is made more excellent in the sense of a superior sacrifice that takes away sins once and for all instead of merely covering them and instead of a certain faction of society being a priesthood, we are all a priesthood in Christ, and in Christ we experience a transformation within ourselves that we might not have otherwise experienced under the Old Covenant.

But no promise God makes ever cancels out preceding promises no matter how great or small they may be. The small promises matter just as much to God as the more greater and excellent promises. The earthly promises, including land restoration, as it pertains to Israel, do not prevent the fulfillment of the promises of the New Covenant but neither does the New Covenant cancel out those promises pertaining to the Jewish people. There is no conflict between the two.


“So you believe the barn is earth and not heaven, correct?”


I did not say that. What I was saying is that the parable of the sower was about the Gospel being spread throughout the world and what is to the righteous and the unrighteous at the end of the age. It is not strictly about Israel. The wheat representing the people of God are brought into the Kingdom of God. The weeds representing the followers of Satan are cast into fire where they will be tormented for all eternity.


“We are dispersed throughout the world because the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. It began small in Jerusalem and grew into a large plant, hence the body of Christ is found all over the world today.”


But that is not a gathering together in the literal sense which will not take place until Christ returns as it pertains to the Church.


“So you believe the parable of the sower is about modern day Israel? I would disagree. Through Jeremiah, God prophesied that he would sow Israel among the nations, not to destroy them, but to grow them. Jesus draw upon this in the parable of the sower, it is Christ who sows the good seed.”


It seems to me that you are the one who does not really understand what the parable of the sower is about. The passage you cited in Jeremiah has nothing to do with the parable of the sower. The parable of the sower pertains to the entire world while the passage you cited out of Jeremiah deals strictly with Israel.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

.

And it is in that remnant that the nation of Israel will be preserved as God promised. And it is through that remnant that Christ will fulfill all that pertains to Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

And it is in that remnant that the nation of Israel will be preserved as God promised. And it is through that remnant that Christ will fulfill all that pertains to Israel.

In Romans 11 the Apostle Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of both Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.

The manner of salvation in Romans 11:26 is found in verse 23.
Paul provides no path to salvation outside the Church in the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

The covenant in verse 27 was fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary.
The Uppercase letters of the NKJV show it to be a quote from the Old Testament.

Isa 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.
Isa 59:21 "As for Me," says the LORD, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the LORD, "from this time and forevermore."

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

In Romans 11 the Apostle Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of both Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.

The manner of salvation in Romans 11:26 is found in verse 23.
Paul provides no path to salvation outside the Church in the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

The covenant in verse 27 was fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary.
The Uppercase letters of the NKJV show it to be a quote from the Old Testament.

Isa 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.
Isa 59:21 "As for Me," says the LORD, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the LORD, "from this time and forevermore."

.

The way to salvation is not the issue. It is about the promises that pertain to the nation of Israel. They were given a set of promises that were never given to any other nation and they have been dealt with in a way God has not dealt with any other nation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They were given a set of promises that were never given to any other nation and they have been dealt with in a way God has not dealt with any other nation.

Indeed. Including at least 2 holocausts .....................

1 during the Jewish Wars, including 70ad and Masada:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
Including The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world.....................
Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw one Messenger standing in the sun, and He cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered! into the Supper of the Great God. 18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings.....

=======================================
And the one in WW2....................

The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:.........

 

[jgr]

You identified the heavenly people of which we are in Christ, but by what characteristics are the earthly people identified?

That's the question.

By what characteristics does God identify His earthly people, that are different from the characteristics by which He identifies His heavenly people i.e. faith and obedience?

Still waiting.

 

[BABerean2]

It is about the promises that pertain to the nation of Israel. They were given a set of promises that were never given to any other nation and they have been dealt with in a way God has not dealt with any other nation.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(See Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, for the fulfillment of the above.)


What promise of the New Covenant was not fulfilled with the following words of Christ at Calvary?

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What did Christ leave unfinished?

Those who place their faith in the New Covenant which was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, receive the gift of eternal life.
What more could any human being want, or expect?

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Yes, you do.



It's becoming clear to me that you do not understand what God's Faithful Remnant is.
Here is some Biblical History on God's preserved Remnant:

In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4) and the rest were excommunicated out of the Covenant forever. That faithful remnant at that time constituted ALL Israel, and from that time forward ONLY the descendants of those 7000 were Gods Covenanted Israel. The rest, again, were cut off forever.

That's how God preserves His remnant in times of Great Apostasy.

Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham, while a faithful remnant remained ... and through the remnant and the remnant alone, "All Israel" Carried on...

Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that "All Israel" continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); And again as mentioned above, in Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that "All Israel" narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then, as in times past, "All Israel" survived and continued on EXCLUSIVELY through the faithful sons, the Nazarene Sect (The REMNANT), while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people FOREVER.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global.

The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

The REAL "replacement theology" is the one who seeks to REPLACE the Faithful Sons of Abraham with the Wicked ones as the true Heirs, which appears to be what you are promoting.

Such is, sadly, RAMPANT here on CF.

That only a remnant of the nation of Israel will be saved receive Christ as their Messiah when He returns will be the end result (Rom. 9:27) and it will be they to whom Christ fulfills all promises pertaining to them that were given to their forefathers.

But fulfilling a promise requires bearing with the wickedness of man for a time. When King Jehu of the Northern Kingdom of Israel had faithfully carried out God’s command to destroy the evil house of Ahab and all of those associated therewith, God then promised to retain the descendants of Jehu on the throne of the Northern Kingdom up to the fourth generation (2 Ki. 10:30) but in order to fulfill that promise, God had to bear with the wickedness of people of the Northern Kingdom for a time.

Neither Jehu or any of the four generations of his line which succeeded him as king were godly men even though they were not as evil as the house of Ahab. But because the God who promises is faithful in keeping His promises, (Heb. 10:23) He had to bear with the wickedness of the Northern Kingdom for longer than He otherwise would have.

But that does not mean that God rewarded the bad behavior of Jehu or his descendants who inherited the throne for the length of time promised. The Northern Kingdom still faced much grief and hardship as a result of their sin and never experienced the promised blessings and prosperity that they otherwise would have.

Likewise, in order to preserve the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God has had to bear with the sin, evil, and unbelief of many of those who are of that line. That doesn’t mean that their evil has not gone unpunished—God has punished it many times—but He has kept them preserved, even when punishing them for their sin and unbelief, because He said that He would preserve them forever.

But there will come a time when God will finally purge from the nation of Israel all the ungodliness, wickedness, and sin that presently abides within their members until only those who truly fear God and are ready to receive Christ as their Messiah remain and under Christ, that remnant will finally experience all that He has desired to give them including the very promises pertaining to them.

What I am promoting is a God who is unchanging (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) and who always fulfills what He says and never fails to keep His promises. (Heb. 10:23) Dare you equate that with the following?

Your Preterist doctrine on the other hand accuses God to be subject to change and of not keeping all of His promises. It has also been known to fuel anti-semitism within the Church.

But make no mistake: I am not saying that you or anyone else adhering to Preterist doctrine are intending to commit blasphemy or harbor animosity towards Jews or the nation of Israel, but those are the ramifications of Preterist thought.