During Tribulation, is it still Faith only for salvation?

[Guojing]

The Apostle St. Paul tells us that where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more.

The simple fact is that throughout the history of the Church there were those Christians who did recant their faith, they did fall. During the Diocletian Persecution, the worst which ever befell the Church during the Roman Empire, many relented, denied Christ, handed over sacred books to be burned, and ended up offering a pinch of incense to Caesar in order to save their own skins. Once the persecution ended, with the Edict of Toleration under Constantine, the Church then had to address what to do with those who had fallen away, these traditors as they were called.. The Church believed in mercy, that those who had betrayed Christ and sold their brethren out should still be welcomed back in through their contrition. Donatism, the heresy of Donatus who argued against the reconciliation of the traditors, was firmly rejected.

The Church is the place where God acts, through Word and Sacrament, to heal and redeem sinners. Because the Church is the Body of Christ, where Christ is present, to be the Great Physician, the Savior of the world, the Lord of all. And so if the Church cannot be the place where there is reconciliation and mercy, then what can?

Even the most vile of sinners have a place here, for Gods mercy has no limits, no bounds. Christ did not come to call the righteous, but the unrighteous to repentance.

-CryptoLutheran

You don’t believe in the rapture of the church before the tribulation?

 

[ViaCrucis]

You don’t believe in the rapture of the church before the tribulation?

Of course I don't, the doctrine of "the rapture" is unbiblical nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JacksBratt]

During the Tribulation, if someone believes Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection in his heart, but chose to take the mark of the beast, because he does not want to starve to death, would God still considered him saved in the end, because he believed in Jesus?

I think that during the tribulation one gains salvation by execution for standing up for Christ and not taking the mark.

It cannot be faith because they will all have knowledge of the fulfillment of the revelation. The people alive during the tribulation will have knowledge of things we don't... Like who the antichrist is and when the end of time will be (seven years).

 

[Guojing]

Of course I don't, the doctrine of "the rapture" is unbiblical nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

I see. Well some of us do and we believe the grace dispensation will end when that happens.

Once it ends, the scriptures that will now apply to the Earth, during the Tribulation, it will be Hebrews to Revelations. We will no longer be using Romans to Philemon then.

 

[Guojing]

I think that during the tribulation one gains salvation by execution for standing up for Christ and not taking the mark.

It cannot be faith because they will all have knowledge of the fulfillment of the revelation. The people alive during the tribulation will have knowledge of things we don't... Like who the antichrist is and when the end of time will be (seven years).

Yep, I also believe that, during the Tribulation, it will once again be faith and works for salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yep, I also believe that, during the Tribulation, it will once again be faith and works for salvation.

I disagree and I don't believe that we are saved by works at all, even today.

But, that's another thread and it has beaten to death.

 

[Chris35]

One sin is enough to send you to hell for eternity. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. It is only by gods grace that there is a way at all. Salvation will always be a free gift from God, for those who believe in him.

Rejecting God your whole life and then rejecting the mark of the beast, is still not enough to earn salvation, its only by Gods grace that they will be given eternal life at all.

Demons believe in Jesus, and know he is the son of God who died for your sin, but they do not have Gods grace.

Once the mark is taken, you will no longer be under God's grace but his wrath. It wont matter if you believe in Jesus or not.


Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

On a side note, do you really think that if you take the mark of the beast, you wont have to do anything for the beast? That he will just allow you to eat?
What if your told to point out Christians? What if your told to come to war?
What if you have to goto a church and worship him?

 

[Andrew77]

During the Tribulation, if someone believes Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection in his heart, but chose to take the mark of the beast, because he does not want to starve to death, would God still considered him saved in the end, because he believed in Jesus?

First, you forgetting one important aspect of salvation. What you said above, even the demons believe that. Lucifer himself knows Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected. But the Devil is not saved, is he?

What the Demons lack, and what your question lacks, is the key aspect of all salvation.

Lordship. Is Jesus your Lord? That is the question.

And if you believe Jesus is your Lord, you will prove that by following his commands, and one of those commands would be to not take the mark of the beast.

How you claim he is Lord, but then completely ignore his commands?

You can believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection, and still go to Hell. You need to also accept him as your Lord. If you do that, you won't be taking the mark of the beast.

 

[Guojing]

I disagree and I don't believe that we are saved by works at all, even today.

But, that's another thread and it has beaten to death.

You do not regard rejecting the mark of the beast as a work?

 

[Guojing]

First, you forgetting one important aspect of salvation. What you said above, even the demons believe that. Lucifer himself knows Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected. But the Devil is not saved, is he?

What the Demons lack, and what your question lacks, is the key aspect of all salvation.

Lordship. Is Jesus your Lord? That is the question.

And if you believe Jesus is your Lord, you will prove that by following his commands, and one of those commands would be to not take the mark of the beast.

How you claim he is Lord, but then completely ignore his commands?

You can believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection, and still go to Hell. You need to also accept him as your Lord. If you do that, you won't be taking the mark of the beast.

So to sum up your views, you need to have faith in Jesus plus rejecting the mark of the beast, in order to be saved?

 

[Guojing]

One sin is enough to send you to hell for eternity. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. It is only by gods grace that there is a way at all. Salvation will always be a free gift from God, for those who believe in him.

Rejecting God your whole life and then rejecting the mark of the beast, is still not enough to earn salvation, its only by Gods grace that they will be given eternal life at all.

Demons believe in Jesus, and know he is the son of God who died for your sin, but they do not have Gods grace.

Once the mark is taken, you will no longer be under God's grace but his wrath. It wont matter if you believe in Jesus or not.


Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

On a side note, do you really think that if you take the mark of the beast, you wont have to do anything for the beast? That he will just allow you to eat?
What if your told to point out Christians? What if your told to come to war?
What if you have to goto a church and worship him?

For me I believe those who are saved under the current church age won’t have to go thru the tribulation.

 

[Chris35]

So to sum up your views, you need to have faith in Jesus plus rejecting the mark of the beast, in order to be saved?

One will not reject the mark unless he has faith in Jesus. If one does not believe in God, how can he choose death over life?

 

[Andrew77]

So to sum up your views, you need to have faith in Jesus plus rejecting the mark of the beast, in order to be saved?

No. Simply rejecting the mark of the beast, and having 'faith in jesus' is not enough.

He must be Lord over your life. Demons have faith in Jesus. They believe he exist, and they believe he did everything he said.

James 2:19
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."

So why do the demons shudder? Because yeah they believe all that... but the have rejected Jesus as Lord.

That is what matters. A person must not only believe... not only have faith... but also accept him as LORD.

Of course if you accept him as Lord, you will not accept the Mark of the beast.

The Bible also says, no one can serve two masters. The mark of the beast is more than just a simple mark. It is acceptance of having him as a master.

The whole point of the mark of the beast... is a designation of who is your master. That is the entire purpose of the mark. By taking the mark, you are saying that you serve the beast. You simply can't do that, if you already serve the Lord.

It's impossible. It's like saying, no I work for Wendy's, when you are working at McDonald's. You can't say, well yeah I am here and earning a paycheck, because there is no Wendy's around here. But I really serve Wendy's not McDonald's.

No, you work at McDonald's, and therefore you are a servant of McDonald's, not Wendy's. (I get that you can have two jobs, but for the sake of the example humor me).

So that's my point. It isn't the action that is the key to salvation. It is your mindset and your choice to not obey the Lord's direct command, and the fact you are openly doing something that shows your allegiance to someone other than Jesus the Christ.

Now I realize other people have a different view, and that's fine. I don't intend to argue my point too much, because after all this is a theoretical.

However I think most people believe you can be saved while having the mark, because they are viewing it from the perspective of someone doing something out of ignorance.

For example I think people can be saved, and get hammered drunk... simply because they don't know they shouldn't, and they grew up in a situation where that was normal.

Or even people on pot, because it's legalized, so nothing is wrong with it, and the Bible doesn't talk about THC or whatever.

However this implies the person is doing something wrong, simply because they do not know any better.

But I don't think the mark of the beast is going to be like that. I think when the mark of the beast comes into existence in this world, that it will be blatantly obvious that it worships the guy who instituted it. I think it will be a religious cult of personality that makes the mark into a sign of your loyalty to the beast.

I don't think it's going to be like getting another credit card. I do not think it will be just a nifty system like Apple Pay or something to make it faster to get your starbucks in the morning.

I think it will be a mark that identifies you as being a worshiper in the beast's unholy cult, AND allows you to buy and sell in the economy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you do agree that anyone with the mark of the beast, even if they believed in Jesus's death burial resurrection, will not be saved?

How can salvation be a free gift still for those who believe if that is true?

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:1-4, Paul is referring to how we are "initially saved" or "ultimately saved." This is the entrance gate to salvation. A person first saved by believing in Christ's death and resurrection on their behalf and in seeking the Lord's forgiveness. This is also known as the Act of Justification. After Justification, a believer then needs to enter the next step or stage in the salvation process called: "Sanctification" (Which is living holy via by the power of the Holy Spirit and or God).

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. This does not mean that salvation does not also include Sanctification after we are saved by God's grace (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). For Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Also see Romans 8:13, as well.

In Conclusion:

There is no contradiction of believers refusing to take the mark of the beast in the future (as a part of their works of responsibility in owning the free gift, who is Jesus Christ). Believers are first saved by God's grace (the gift) and then by Works of Faith (and or holiness) follows afterwards. For Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you do agree that anyone with the mark of the beast, even if they believed in Jesus's death burial resurrection, will not be saved?

How can salvation be a free gift still for those who believe if that is true?

We are "Initially Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace; For if a believer stumbles into a sin, do not get clean or forgiven by doing a good work? No. Of course not. They get forgiven by confessing of their sins to Jesus (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). One is cleansed of all unrighteousness by confession (1 John 1:9).

A believer also needs to bring forth works as a part of the promise to the Lord in forsaking their evil ways (When they sought out forgiveness with Him). This is a natural response as a part of the Lord living in us. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

This appears to be a contradiction, but it is not.
Paul is fighting against "Works Alone Salvationism" (via because of the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism - See Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, and then see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Circumcision Salvation was saying that you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of trusting in Jesus as one's Savior. For if one says they are saved by circumcision first, then there is no grace. It's all about works then. This was the heresy that Paul was fighting against. But many today have taken Paul's words out of context to refer to even obedience to the commands of Jesus, when this was not the case at all.

James was arguing against "Belief Alone Salvationism." For James says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). So a belief alone does not save anyone if there is no works of faith that follow it.

 

[Guojing]

So to sum up your views, you need to have faith in Jesus plus rejecting the mark of the beast, in order to be saved?

One will not reject the mark unless he has faith in Jesus. If one does not believe in God, how can he choose death over life?

Yes but it is clearly possible for one who believe in Jesus but still choose to take the mark for the sake of having to eat.

One is faith, the other is work. I am sure you know of Christians who are not Water baptised, not giving to church, not attending church etc

 

[Guojing]

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:1-4, Paul is referring to how we are "initially saved" or "ultimately saved." This is the entrance gate to salvation. A person first saved by believing in Christ's death and resurrection on their behalf and in seeking the Lord's forgiveness. This is also known as the Act of Justification. After Justification, a believer then needs to enter the next step or stage in the salvation process called: "Sanctification" (Which is living holy via by the power of the Holy Spirit and or God).

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. This does not mean that salvation does not also include Sanctification after we are saved by God's grace (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). For Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Also see Romans 8:13, as well.

In Conclusion:

There is no contradiction of believers refusing to take the mark of the beast in the future (as a part of their works of responsibility in owning the free gift, who is Jesus Christ). Believers are first saved by God's grace (the gift) and then by Works of Faith (and or holiness) follows afterwards. For Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

With regards to your car analogy, what do you mean he will no longer have the car? You mean the father who gave him the car will take the car back?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With regards to your car analogy, what do you mean he will no longer have the car? You mean the father who gave him the car will take the car back?

The car can be forfeited in the fact that one can breaks the laws of the land (Which would be even out of the father's control). For example: If one decided to intentionally do damage to public property and people with their car, they would no longer be able to possess the car if the damage was extreme and people were seriously hurt or killed.

Another analogy is a man praying for a Christian woman for years and God answers his prayer. The man regards this woman as a gift from the Lord. But does that mean he can cheat on her and expect that relationship to last? No. Imagine if he just said he was sorry all the time to her but he had no intention of ever stopping on cheating on her. Would he really be sorry in that case? No. The same is true with God. Folks cannot turn God's free gift of grace into a license for immorality. It doesn't work like that. God is good. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With regards to your car analogy, what do you mean he will no longer have the car? You mean the father who gave him the car will take the car back?

In other words, think of all the gifts you received, and all the maintenance that was required in up keeping some of those gifts. Does it make the gift any less free because you had to take care of some of those gifts? No. Is it possible that a gift can be rendered useless or inoperable or to no longer be in your possession if you are careless with such a gift?

That's the point I am getting at.

There is a difference between:

1. Works of responsibility in owning a free gift (like a car that was given to you) vs.

2. Working at a job so as to be able to pay off a car loan so as to one day receive the title of ownership.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes but it is clearly possible for one who believe in Jesus but still choose to take the mark for the sake of having to eat.

One is faith, the other is work. I am sure you know of Christians who are not Water baptised, not giving to church, not attending church etc

Actually, while Jesus died for the sins of he whole world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation (John 1:29) (1 John 2:2), the only exception to that rule are those who worship the beast in the future. For those who worship the beast in the future never had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). God knew the evil that they were going to do, and thus as a result, their name was never in the book of life. This is because God elects (or chooses) others based on his future foreknowledge (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2).