During Tribulation, is it still Faith only for salvation?

[Guojing]

In other words, think of all the gifts you received, and all the maintenance that was required in up keeping some of those gifts. Does it make the gift any less free because you had to take care of some of those gifts? No. Is it possible that a gift can be rendered useless or inoperable or to no longer be in your possession if you are careless with such a gift?

That's the point I am getting at.

There is a difference between:

1. Works of responsibility in owning a free gift (like a car that was given to you) vs.

2. Working at a job so as to be able to pay off a car loan so as to one day receive the title of ownership.

You should not use a gift that requires maintenance as an analogy then.

Why not a simpler example, when you a gift to your kid, say a simple stuffed toy. Would it upset you if in the kid's mind, he always think "Is it really free? Must I do something for it in the future, otherwise he will take back the gift"?

 

[Guojing]

The car can be forfeited in the fact that one can breaks the laws of the land (Which would be even out of the father's control). For example: If one decided to intentionally do damage to public property and people with their car, they would no longer be able to possess the car if the damage was extreme and people were seriously hurt or killed.

Another analogy is a man praying for a Christian woman for years and God answers his prayer. The man regards this woman as a gift from the Lord. But does that mean he can cheat on her and expect that relationship to last? No. Imagine if he just said he was sorry all the time to her but he had no intention of ever stopping on cheating on her. Would he really be sorry in that case? No. The same is true with God. Folks cannot turn God's free gift of grace into a license for immorality. It doesn't work like that. God is good. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

If the government confiscate your car away from you because you break the law, then it is still a free gift from the Father. And human beings, with their free will and all, are not good examples of "gifts from God"

Try not to use all these weird examples in your analogy, if you want to compare it to a gift our Father in heaven give to us.

 

[Guojing]

We are "Initially Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace; For if a believer stumbles into a sin, do not get clean or forgiven by doing a good work? No. Of course not. They get forgiven by confessing of their sins to Jesus (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). One is cleansed of all unrighteousness by confession (1 John 1:9).

A believer also needs to bring forth works as a part of the promise to the Lord in forsaking their evil ways (When they sought out forgiveness with Him). This is a natural response as a part of the Lord living in us. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

This appears to be a contradiction, but it is not.
Paul is fighting against "Works Alone Salvationism" (via because of the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism - See Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, and then see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Circumcision Salvation was saying that you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of trusting in Jesus as one's Savior. For if one says they are saved by circumcision first, then there is no grace. It's all about works then. This was the heresy that Paul was fighting against. But many today have taken Paul's words out of context to refer to even obedience to the commands of Jesus, when this was not the case at all.

James was arguing against "Belief Alone Salvationism." For James says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). So a belief alone does not save anyone if there is no works of faith that follow it.

Anyway, during the Tribulation, I will actually agree with you, that you will need Faith AND Works to be considered saved. But then salvation will cease to be a gift from God.

But now, we are still in the church age, so the disagreement still stands. =)

 

[Guojing]

One sin is enough to send you to hell for eternity. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. It is only by gods grace that there is a way at all. Salvation will always be a free gift from God, for those who believe in him.

Rejecting God your whole life and then rejecting the mark of the beast, is still not enough to earn salvation, its only by Gods grace that they will be given eternal life at all.

Demons believe in Jesus, and know he is the son of God who died for your sin, but they do not have Gods grace.

Once the mark is taken, you will no longer be under God's grace but his wrath. It wont matter if you believe in Jesus or not.


Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

On a side note, do you really think that if you take the mark of the beast, you wont have to do anything for the beast? That he will just allow you to eat?
What if your told to point out Christians? What if your told to come to war?
What if you have to goto a church and worship him?

Okay, Rev 14:12 specifically states

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So I can agree with you that rejecting the mark of the beast could be just one of the commandments of God one must keep in order to be justified during the Tribulation.

I am just using the mark of the beast as the prime example due to the clarity found in Rev 14:9 onwards.

But once there are conditions attached to salvation, it will cease to be a "free gift". But that is okay, God is already remarkably patient with us for this current grace dispensation is REALLY very loooooong. =)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If the government confiscate your car away from you because you break the law, then it is still a free gift from the Father. And human beings, with their free will and all, are not good examples of "gifts from God"

Try not to use all these weird examples in your analogy, if you want to compare it to a gift our Father in heaven give to us.

No. It doesn't matter what happens in the past. You no longer have a free gift if the government takes your car away from you permanently. It is no longer in your possession. It is no longer yours to have. The past does not determine your present reality always. No gift currently in your possession means you don't have a gift anymore. It is gone. You cannot use your free gift anymore.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You should not use a gift that requires maintenance as an analogy then.

Why not a simpler example, when you a gift to your kid, say a simple stuffed toy. Would it upset you if in the kid's mind, he always think "Is it really free? Must I do something for it in the future, otherwise he will take back the gift"?

My analogy still works just fine. You just do not like it. The point here is that it does not have to be precise to understand the concept behind how it works. Reality teaches us that some gifts need to be taken care of and that they can be forfeited or destroyed if one does not take care of them. To deny this truth is to deny reality. It would be illogical to do so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyway, during the Tribulation, I will actually agree with you, that you will need Faith AND Works to be considered saved. But then salvation will cease to be a gift from God.

No. Works of responsibility in maintaining your free gift does not mean you have taken out a loan to buy the gift that is already yours (Whereby you would have to work at a job to pay off the loan on the gift).

But now, we are still in the church age, so the disagreement still stands. =)

So you believe salvation is different in different periods of time?
How did you draw that conclusion?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, Rev 14:12 specifically states

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So I can agree with you that rejecting the mark of the beast could be just one of the commandments of God one must keep in order to be justified during the Tribulation.

I am just using the mark of the beast as the prime example due to the clarity found in Rev 14:9 onwards.

But once there are conditions attached to salvation, it will cease to be a "free gift". But that is okay, God is already remarkably patient with us for this current grace dispensation is REALLY very loooooong. =)

Actually, Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth in Luke 10:25-28 that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus says to the rich young ruler, "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments." These commands are the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22). John says, he that hates his brother (the opposite of loving your brother) is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See: 1 John 3:15).

 

[Guojing]

My analogy still works just fine. You just do not like it. The point here is that it does not have to be precise to understand the concept behind how it works. Reality teaches us that some gifts need to be taken care of and that they can be forfeited or destroyed if one does not take care of them. To deny this truth is to deny reality. It would be illogical to do so.

God's gift of salvation is not as weak as you regard it as. There are plenty of verses even in the 4 Gospels that testify to that. Example John 6:37-40

 

[Guojing]

Actually, Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth in Luke 10:25-28 that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus says to the rich young ruler, "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments." These commands are the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22). John says, he that hates his brother (the opposite of loving your brother) is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See: 1 John 3:15).

Yes, in time past and the age to come, it will be the Gospel of the Kingdom where Faith + Works are both required for salvation.

But I believe we are currently in the "but now" period, where it is only by Faith alone for salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

You do not regard rejecting the mark of the beast as a work?

no. I also don't call "accepting Christ as savior" or "getting down on my knees" or "admitting that I'm a sinner" or "praying for forgiveness of my sins" as work.

 

[Dave L]

During the Tribulation, if someone believes Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection in his heart, but chose to take the mark of the beast, because he does not want to starve to death, would God still considered him saved in the end, because he believed in Jesus?

The great tribulation was Jewish and happened as Jesus said it would in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. When Jesus returns, it will be like today, the Days of Noah. Marrying and giving in marriage. There is no pre-trib rapture or 7 year tribulation in our future. These are part of a false prophecy scheme that came about in the 1800s. The Texas Chainsaw Bible Massacre

 

[Guojing]

no. I also don't call "accepting Christ as savior" or "getting down on my knees" or "admitting that I'm a sinner" or "praying for forgiveness of my sins" as work.

I guess if you are able to include many requirements as part of "faith", then yes, its very easy to hold the view that salvation is by faith alone.

 

[Guojing]

The great tribulation was Jewish and happened as Jesus said it would in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. When Jesus returns, it will be like today, the Days of Noah. Marrying and giving in marriage. There is no pre-trib rapture or 7 year tribulation in our future. These are part of a false prophecy scheme that came about in the 1800s. The Texas Chainsaw Bible Massacre

Was there the mark of the beast then? Could you buy or sell without that mark during AD 70?

 

[Dave L]

Was there the mark of the beast then? Could you buy or sell without that mark during AD 70?

The mark is symbolic. If you look for the symbol to appear yo will never see it. If you look for what the symbol represents, you can see it today in America and in history where ever sinful laws brought persecution of Christians. For instants, the recent Christian wedding businesses could not buy or sell unless they received the mark and catered to sinful weddings. Also those who supported these laws received it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I see. Well some of us do and we believe the grace dispensation will end when that happens.

Once it ends, the scriptures that will now apply to the Earth, during the Tribulation, it will be Hebrews to Revelations. We will no longer be using Romans to Philemon then.

That seems like a pretty good reason to reject the error of Dispensationalism. If it forces you to deny the saving work of Christ and His holy and precious Gospel, then it is anathema.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God's gift of salvation is not as weak as you regard it as. There are plenty of verses even in the 4 Gospels that testify to that. Example John 6:37-40

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?” ​

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."​

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."​

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".​

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, in time past and the age to come, it will be the Gospel of the Kingdom where Faith + Works are both required for salvation.

But I believe we are currently in the "but now" period, where it is only by Faith alone for salvation.

This would make it seem like God is a respecter of persons if He kept holding different people groups to different standards of salvation. I never understood how God could operate in this way and yet still be fair, just, and good. Besides, I never seen any indication that God flips back and forth like this involving salvation. Surely there should be a good set of verses or passages that explains why God keeps flipping back and forth when it comes to salvation.

If you believe this to be the case: Then make your case with Scripture.

As for the morality or fairness of God:
How can God condemn one people group in history for "Faith + Works" and yet accept such a thing in another point in time in history? It seems like God cannot make up his mind about salvation in this view, and that He is not equal and fair to all people when it comes to salvation. So if you are living in the wrong time period, too bad for you. It just does not seem fair and consistent with the goodness of the Lord as I have come to know Him, and what I have read about Him in Scripture. Please also make your case of how God can change salvation like this and yet also be a fair and good God to all (not being a respecter of persons). Please use real world examples if possible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess if you are able to include many requirements as part of "faith", then yes, its very easy to hold the view that salvation is by faith alone.

You are not getting the fact that no believer can be saved at any point and yet also worship the beast (i.e. which would include them taking the mark). Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 says that those who worship the beast never had their names in the book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that anyone who worships the beast in the future NEVER had been saved at any point in their life (even when they were a baby). This is the only exception to the rule compared to the rest of the world that Christ died for. Every other human being who has ever existed (besides those who worship the beast in the future) Christ died for their sins so as to offer them the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it) (See: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, in time past and the age to come, it will be the Gospel of the Kingdom where Faith + Works are both required for salvation.

But I believe we are currently in the "but now" period, where it is only by Faith alone for salvation.

The problem I see with God's plan of salvation that keeps shifting and changing through different time periods is that Paul never said that Jesus's words should not be regarded in light of what he was teaching. On the contrary, Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). This for me shows that your view of the ever changing plan of salvation is not consistent with what God's Word says.

Yes, there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12), which happened when the New Covenant began with Christ's death, but salvation has always been "God's grace through faith + Works of Faith" in all points in time. This teaching can be seen even with the teachings of Paul. For Paul says that a man can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says that God has chosen us to salvation by "belief of the truth" and by the: "Sanctification of the Spirit" (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if you live one way (towards sin) you are going to die, and yet if you live another way (putting to death sin in your body) via the Holy Spirit, you are going to live (i.e. live eternally). So I don't see Paul teaching something radically different than what Jesus taught.