Virginia teen was detained and prosecuted for saying 'OINK OINK' to cop

DanishLutheran

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I believe that speech should be free no matter what, even if it is offensive. (except if it induces violence, like "let us harm person X" or "let us attack group Y")

Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that your definition of "inducing violence" (a point I fully agree with, btw!) also extends to

"The gay lifestyle is sinful"
"There are only two genders"
and similar statements?
 
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Sparagmos

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When people say the cops risk their lives every day they are not just referring to slips and falls. They are referring to assault and attacks. Not too many heating and cooling specialists have to worry about getting shot or assaulted.
I’m not sure what your point is. Death is death, regardless of how it happens, and a bunch of other jobs are more dangerous, period.
 
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rjs330

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I’m not sure what your point is. Death is death, regardless of how it happens, and a bunch of other jobs are more dangerous, period.

The point is, and I think you know it, is that a cops job is uniquely dangerous. If you don't understand that then you need to go do a bunch of ride a longs with them. You will get a proper perspective.
General work place safety like slips and falls or falling off a ladder are not the same kind of dangerous as being watchful that the person you are pulling over doesn't shoot you or the person you are stopping doesn't attack you.
 
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Sparagmos

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The point is, and I think you know it, is that a cops job is uniquely dangerous. If you don't understand that then you need to go do a bunch of ride a longs with them. You will get a proper perspective.
General work place safety like slips and falls or falling off a ladder are not the same kind of dangerous as being watchful that the person you are pulling over doesn't shoot you or the person you are stopping doesn't attack you.
Yet a cop is less likely to die at work than those other people. So it’s a less dangerous job. It’s basic math...
 
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SummerMadness

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Yet a cop is less likely to die at work than those other people. So it’s a less dangerous job. It’s basic math...
I think the problem is their argument, they want to justify police brutality by claiming the job is the most dangerous; being in danger means they should not be held to a high standard of conduct. The thing is, even if they had the most dangerous job, which they do NOT, that does not justify police brutality. Government accountability is important, thus blind support for police misconduct does not move our society forward. When you think it's okay to brutalize a kid for saying "oink oink," it says something about you.
 
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rjs330

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Yet a cop is less likely to die at work than those other people. So it’s a less dangerous job. It’s basic math...

You may continue to downplay the the dangers of being a cop if you like. Statistics don't tell the whole story and you know it. Simple danger can't be quantified that way. How many roofers are assaulted each year? How many truckers respond to scenes of violence where they have to be on guard every second because one of the people my shoot them? How many of these folks wear bullet proof vests? Nah! I think you get it and so does the majority of people. It just that some dislike cops so much that they love to find ways to make thier unique job seem like no big deal.
 
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DanishLutheran

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They teargas peaceful protesters after kettling (trapping) them. They’ve been busted associating with white supremecists. I don’t think they are serving the public equally and fairly.

Knowing what passes for "Peaceful protest" on the left, Imma call shenanigans on that one ^_^
 
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SummerMadness

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You may continue to downplay the the dangers of being a cop if you like. Statistics don't tell the whole story and you know it. Simple danger can't be quantified that way. How many roofers are assaulted each year? How many truckers respond to scenes of violence where they have to be on guard every second because one of the people my shoot them? How many of these folks wear bullet proof vests? Nah! I think you get it and so does the majority of people. It just that some dislike cops so much that they love to find ways to make thier unique job seem like no big deal.
You're downplaying the more dangerous occupations, as opposed to anyone else downplaying the danger for police. There is danger associated with their job, no one doubts that, but it's not the most dangerous. And as already demonstrated, assaults aren't as common, especially injuries from assault. There is nothing wrong with the statistics, the problem is the bad argument being made.
 
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rjs330

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Your certainly don't treat them equal and seem to be only focused on the name calling as if "better training" is the answer to issue with police. The DOJ found that most police officers (84%) have seen fellow officers use excessive force and most do nothing about that (61%). Yet here you are talking about respect and children having poor character while ignoring a widespread crisis.

I think that one if the issues here, correct me if I'm wrong please, is that those percentages combined with most of your posts make it seem that excessive use of force is rampant in law enforcement. 84% may have seen excessive firce, but that does not mean that 84% of officer use excessive force. What's the percentage of officers that have used excessive force?

It's not a wide spread crisis. This is the problem with the argument. By continually pushing this kind of nonsense it makes people think most cops are going around beating on people and using excessive force. It creates an appearance of crisis when there isn't one.

Yes cops have and do use excessive force at times. Like that ones pointing guns at a family whose child stole a doll. It should be stamped out every time. ESPECIALLY when an officer does it more than once.

But this running around saying the sky is falling just makes people chicken little. When you have less than 1 % of officers use unjustified use of deadly force there is no way you can call it a crisis and call yourself objective.

You just create fear where none is needed.
 
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rjs330

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You're downplaying the more dangerous occupations, as opposed to anyone else downplaying the danger for police. There is danger associated with their job, no one doubts that, but it's not the most dangerous. And as already demonstrated, assaults aren't as common, especially injuries from assault. There is nothing wrong with the statistics, the problem is the bad argument being made.

It's not right to compair apples and oranges in order to try and make something true. Would you say the same about our military? Being in the military is not very dangerous. How many Navy seals get killed or injured in a year? Not as many as HVAC people. Therefore being a HVAC person is more dangerous than being a Navy Seal apparently. Apples and oranges. The type of danger matters. HVAC folks don't run around in bullet proof vests and if you can't see the difference then I don't know what to say.
 
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Sparagmos

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Knowing what passes for "Peaceful protest" on the left, Imma call shenanigans on that one ^_^
It is documented and the communications between cops and white supremecists were obtained and published by a local newspaper.
 
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iluvatar5150

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You may continue to downplay the the dangers of being a cop if you like. Statistics don't tell the whole story and you know it. Simple danger can't be quantified that way. How many roofers are assaulted each year? How many truckers respond to scenes of violence where they have to be on guard every second because one of the people my shoot them? How many of these folks wear bullet proof vests? Nah! I think you get it and so does the majority of people. It just that some dislike cops so much that they love to find ways to make thier unique job seem like no big deal.

Cops face a higher number of potential threats, but that doesn't mean the actual rate of incident is any higher for them. It just means that they have a harder time predicting where the threat is going to come from.

Professional rockclimbers and skydivers don't have to worry about getting shot, but the fact that they only have to worry about one threat (i.e. splattering on the ground) doesn't mean that their risk is lower.

It's not right to compair apples and oranges in order to try and make something true. Would you say the same about our military? Being in the military is not very dangerous. How many Navy seals get killed or injured in a year? Not as many as HVAC people. Therefore being a HVAC person is more dangerous than being a Navy Seal apparently. Apples and oranges. The type of danger matters. HVAC folks don't run around in bullet proof vests and if you can't see the difference then I don't know what to say.

Way to conflate being in the Navy with being a SEAL. Most Navy jobs aren't dangerous and most seamen aren't SEALs.

If we're trying to quantify danger, then no, the type of danger doesn't matter.
 
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variant

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I think the problem is their argument, they want to justify police brutality by claiming the job is the most dangerous; being in danger means they should not be held to a high standard of conduct. The thing is, even if they had the most dangerous job, which they do NOT, that does not justify police brutality. Government accountability is important, thus blind support for police misconduct does not move our society forward. When you think it's okay to brutalize a kid for saying "oink oink," it says something about you.

If that is the argument, I'd like to see some justification that police brutality makes the police safer.

It seems we have an overly brutal police force and a police force that is likely to be hurt and I don't think that is just a correlation.
 
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Ana the Ist

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If that is the argument, I'd like to see some justification that police brutality makes the police safer.

That really depends on what you mean by "police brutality". A lot of behavior that people call "police brutality" isn't....which is why it doesn't get prosecuted.


It seems we have an overly brutal police force *snip*

That's certainly possible...though I don't recall any stats on it.

How many convicted cases of police brutality were there last year? Or the year before? Or before that?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Cops face a higher number of potential threats, but that doesn't mean the actual rate of incident is any higher for them. It just means that they have a harder time predicting where the threat is going to come from.

That's a rather odd argument. They may face a higher number of possible threats...but that doesn't mean they have a higher rate of incidents.

It makes me wonder what you mean by "incidents". For example, if we're talking about a roofer....we may learn his biggest threat comes from a poorly positioned ladder, or malfunctioning ladder (like it doesn't lock into place properly)...does that mean he's facing danger every time he climbs the ladder? Or only those times when it's malfunctioning? If it's only when malfunctioning....then arguably, it's not a danger inherent in the job of roofing so much as it is the danger of using a ladder (which is just part of roofing and doesn't necessarily have to be if roofers switch to say, a cherry picker).

Professional rockclimbers and skydivers don't have to worry about getting shot, but the fact that they only have to worry about one threat (i.e. splattering on the ground) doesn't mean that their risk is lower.

Well I'm not sure how you would measure the dangers of rock climbing. Last time I watched something on professional climbers, I was left with the impression that they received at least minor injuries every time they climbed. Bruises and scrapes are a part of that job. As for deaths and serious injuries....that seems like it's highly dependent upon the type of climbing and the safety tools used.

As for parachuting instructors....I honestly don't know how you'd go about calculating the dangers. If there's only 100 instructors in the nation (and arguably, there was at one point) and one of them dies because he didn't pack his chute properly....does that really mean that the rate of death for the job is 1 in 100? Or is the sample too small to accurately determine?

More importantly though, neither of those jobs compels anyone by duty to face danger. If a skydiver decides weather conditions are too dangerous, he can just not jump. He may lose a client...but it's a choice we want him to make. The rock climbee may lose a sponsor....but he doesn't have to face any dangers he doesn't want to.

That's not the same for a cop. If a couple of kids are shooting up their school and he's the only cop there....we still want him to go in there and face inordinate danger. He may choose not to...but if he does, he won't likely be a cop for long.

Way to conflate being in the Navy with being a SEAL. Most Navy jobs aren't dangerous and most seamen aren't SEALs.

If we're trying to quantify danger, then no, the type of danger doesn't matter.

I think the death rate for SEALS is somewhere around 30% anyway....so it is a bad example.

I think the point though is valid...you're comparing unlike dangers. There's a danger to truckers....but it mostly comes from trying to work long hours and stay awake. There's also a danger that SEALS face....but it mostly comes from avoiding being killed by someone trying to kill you.

One of those dangers involves a lot of training, a lot of effort, split second life and death decisions, and a certain element of luck. The other danger involves making sure you get a good night's sleep.

That's why it doesn't matter if the truckers fall asleep often enough to get more deaths or serious injuries per capita than the SEALS....it's always more dangerous to be a SEAL.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Cops face a higher number of potential threats, but that doesn't mean the actual rate of incident is any higher for them. It just means that they have a harder time predicting where the threat is going to come from.

Professional rockclimbers and skydivers don't have to worry about getting shot, but the fact that they only have to worry about one threat (i.e. splattering on the ground) doesn't mean that their risk is lower.

Insurance companies actually try to determine "potential risks" for jobs (I looked this up last time I was posting in this thread) and you know the jobs with the highest "potential dangers" they found?

Dentists, dental assistants, dental hygienists.

They are directly dealing with people breathing on them, which exposes them to communicable diseases. They deal with many sharp and potentially contaminated tools in close confined spaces. They run the risk of being exposed to dangerous amounts of radiation over the lifetime of their jobs. They deal with blood and saliva which potentially exposes them to all kinds of bloodborne pathogens.

All this adds up to a higher potential risk than anyone apparently.

Now, they take a certain number of precautions to mitigate those risks. As long as they follow safety policies and procedures the danger stays remarkably low. They may have more sick days than most....but they aren't likely to get an illness or poisoning that causes significant damage or death. If we strip away all the precautions and safety, they might only average 5-10 years.

The point is this....not every job requires the safety measures it should, not every employee follows the safety measures they should. If they all did....yes, I think we could look at things like injuries and deaths and have a good idea what is a dangerous job and what isn't.

When we look at police though....it's a danger that no amount of safety policies or tools or training could ever completely eliminate the danger of. It's a small number of jobs that are that dangerous. The vast majority of those jobs listed by death or injury aren't that kind of danger (I still think truckers and lumberjacks would be there).
 
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That really depends on what you mean by "police brutality". A lot of behavior that people call "police brutality" isn't....which is why it doesn't get prosecuted.

The OP is a good example.

That's certainly possible...though I don't recall any stats on it.

How many convicted cases of police brutality were there last year? Or the year before? Or before that?

We're not going on convicted cases given that the police don't convict their own.

The OP was "perfectly legit" police work according to that standard.
 
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PeachyKeane

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It is not racist, certain Muslims tend to be jihadist, like Salafosts or 12-er mahdists, profiling certain types of Muslims that say travel to Iraq, Yemen, Iran and Afghanistan to certain training camps or madrassas could save lives, profiling saying a loner trenchcoat wearing white kid who posts wired stuff on facebook can save lives, profiling certain minorities if they are blaring rap music, there car reeks of marijuana, and is tatted up and may have a gun under the seat saves lives, it not racist, it saving lives of the community -white, brown, black , purple, whatever.

Wow. That is one sentence.
 
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